025_Patrick Rebstock: Exploring the World of Downwinding with the Parawing

Season #1 October 21, 2025

In this conversation, Patrick Rebstock shares his journey from traditional board sports to downwinding and now into parawinging. He discusses the importance of safety, understanding local geography, and the differences between groundswell and windswell. Patrick emphasises the need for preparation and knowledge of conditions to ensure a successful and safe downwinding experience. We discuss the intricacies of foiling, particularly focusing on the techniques and skills required for effective downwinding with a parawing. We explore the importance of understanding energy dynamics in the ocean, the process of packing down the parawing, and the role of the paddle in enhancing the downwind experience.

The discussion also touches on the selection of appropriate boards for different conditions and the future of parawinging as a sport.

Thank you for coming on and sharing all your knowledge mate! I’m sure people will learn heaps from this chat!

#Parawing #Foiling #Podcast

Episode Transcript

Daniel Paronetto (00:00)
Today we have Patrick Rebstock. This is really an episode for everybody who wants to get into downwindings. Safety concerns, how do you use the para wing? What makes a good para wing? What gear do you use? So I found this thing called Runline Augmentation where it's actually been a great tool for the beginners is they can get out from the very beginning and then be in those good bumps, which is going to make that learning process even easier. I guess probably the biggest thing for safety is could you get in?

in case the wind dies. There's a few things that can really help you with that. Downwinding and forecasting is a complicated thing. So you need to look at the wind from the start, the wind in the middle, and the wind at the end at different time periods. So once I have this little ball, the line's still dangling out, the bar's under my arm. Peel off, find a new bump, then I'll go ahead and snow. Yeah, so whenever I'm doing point A to point B, I'm taking my paddle with me. I use bike inner tube and electrical tapes. I think it's in...

awesome tool to get into downwinding. seems like every year they come up with a new sport for us to do. What are the things that you would put at the top of the list for a pair wing to have? For a pair wing, think I want something that is...

Daniel Paronetto (01:24)
Welcome to the Lab at Forlook podcast. My name is Dan and today we have Patrick Rebstock. Patrick is a SUP downwinder who started using the Parrowing to augment his downwind runs. Welcome to the podcast, mate.

Patrick Rebstock (01:39)
Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

Daniel Paronetto (01:41)
Absolutely, I've

been following a little bit of your journey and I love seeing people use the power wing to do different things that what I'm doing. I started doing some downwinders with it. Now I do upwind downwinds, but I see that you're really, really into using the power wing to help and make the downwinding experience a little bit better for you. So we'll definitely start touching on all those things. This is really an episode for everybody who wants to get into downwinding to understand about.

you know, safety concerns, how do you use the para wing? What makes a good para wing for ⁓ down-winding? What gear do you use? ⁓ But before we get into all that, let's learn a little bit about you. I always like to learn a little bit about the guests, where you come from with your boardings, ⁓ with your ⁓ sporting experience. Yeah, your whatever, your board sports experience is what I was going for. Just to understand.

Patrick Rebstock (02:28)
You have wording?

Daniel Paronetto (02:37)
how your approach to down, of pair winging is with your background. So tell us a little bit about how you got into board sports and foiling in general.

Patrick Rebstock (02:45)
Nice, well yeah, thanks for having me and Stoked Beyond. ⁓ My background comes from influences from my dad. My dad, Rob, was a surfer, a wave windsurfer, ⁓ kind of just did everything in the water you could and my sister and mom also got in the water so we kind of would from a young age just always be at the beach and going surfing.

And so most of my influence in board sports comes from a wave riding perspective. ⁓ When I was about 10, ⁓ started trying to like windsurf on my own, just with like the kids learner gear, and it was way too heavy to carry to the beach. And I had been tandem windsurfing with my dad where I would stand on the board, his wave riding gear and ⁓ go in between the sail or on the nose and we would ride waves.

And the feeling of when the wave starts picking you up on a windsurfer and you feel all that wind accelerate as the wave kind of builds and then you like start ripping down the line and you could actually do turns because he was a good wave sailor. ⁓ That feeling is just intoxicating. And so ⁓ as I think it was about 10 years old, a lot of his friends, was windsurfing friends that would go to Maui and they brought the first kites home.

And I just was like, that's super light. I can put that in a backpack and bike down to the beach. That's what I want to do. And at first, ⁓ it was just a challenge of how do you get here and then how do you do it as a little kid. So I just got a tiny kite and I flew it on the beach just for endless hours. And I know you've talked about this where beach practice is key and it's like.

Daniel Paronetto (04:36)
Mmm.

Patrick Rebstock (04:38)
my parents didn't even give me board. was land flying, just like you would for the pairwing, which is probably the best way to learn all the skills. I did that probably for a year, and I could do handle passes and kite loops and ride a sand skateboard around in the sand, but not even go in the water yet. So by the time I actually got aboard, I had all the skills already. And I feel like that's really applicable in the pairwinging because...

Daniel Paronetto (04:44)
Perfect.

Mm.

Patrick Rebstock (05:05)
You can learn all of these skills, whether it's foiling or whether it's down winning or being safe offshore before you actually pair wing. And then all those skills together will come and help you do the sport. Cause it's kind of like a pinnacle sport where you need to know how to do all the other ones. But yeah, so I started kiting a lot, did both the twin tip and surfboard kiting.

Daniel Paronetto (05:17)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Patrick Rebstock (05:27)
and my influences were ⁓ Peter Trow and he was one of the first wave sailors that won, I think it was a Cape Verde contest in the very early days, flexi foil, ram-air kites and these little surfboards and he would just rip and so I saw him and Corky Cullen ⁓ at one of the wave spots that we were at and that was just like this incredible so I took on the surfboard side of kite surfing

Daniel Paronetto (05:53)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (05:53)
and

did a lot of that. Me and my friends, Ian Aldridge and Bear Carey, kind of grew up together and we all did strapless kite surfing. so we tried to make kite surfing as much like surfing because we all surfed surfboards as well. And so that was kind of my upbringing through, you know, high school, middle school, college. I was doing that, did it sponsored when I was a little kid and then professionally through like high school and college.

and then after college and I ⁓ went to college for engineering and so that kind of ⁓ board sport stuff with kite surfing and surfing and all that stuff kind of blended with the engineering and I started like tweaking with gear and messing around with it and so I always got really ⁓ excited to mess around with some of the ⁓

equipment that we got to try and as these sports get more more technical with foiling, it's pretty fun to ⁓ blend those. I think I was rambling way on. Sorry about that.

Daniel Paronetto (06:51)
Nice.

No, dude, I,

there's no rambling man in this podcast. I like to ask the full story because I like to understand that because you come really from even just your perspective on the ocean. You look at the ocean. think you think surf. And I love that because that's what you want to do, right? You're down-winding, but you're not down-winding with the paddle and like going up and over and racing. don't know. That's the feeling I get. don't think, I don't think that attracts, you know, that part of the sport doesn't attract you. It's more like.

Man, I can surf for an hour and a half on a down and run. Like that's the best thing that you could ever possibly do on a foil. And that's exactly why I got into it as well. I was like, man, this is the only way I can surf in a bay and I can do it for an hour. Like it's, ⁓ it's perfect.

Patrick Rebstock (07:37)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So it definitely kind of came from that kite surfing influence and surfing and just wanting to ride waves. We live here in the central coast of California. It's one of the windiest places around. That's why I went to college here. That's why I live here is because it's windy. But ⁓ as I had kids, you are a little bit more limited in how far you want to drive to go get particular conditions.

Daniel Paronetto (07:55)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (08:12)
and it turns out our spot that's right in front of our house is onshore wind. so kite surfing is a little bit better when it's side shore and you have really nice waves to ride, which we kind of go an hour south to do that predominantly. And so looking at the conditions out front, foiling really just presented the maximal use of our conditions. It turned what is onshore slop first.

Daniel Paronetto (08:20)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (08:39)
You know, you're looking at that and you're like, I don't like, I want to go kiting there. I want to go anywhere but there. It's my worst favorite spot. But with foiling, it's the best spot because you have this huge bay all uninterrupted by, uh, know, headlands or whatever. And it's just, you know, waves of galore. So it turns a, you know, a 10 mile point break to you can just surf.

Daniel Paronetto (08:44)
Hmm.

What was the first form of foiling that you experienced? Was it kite foiling or did you get into the, ⁓ like prone? What did you get into?

Patrick Rebstock (09:10)
Yeah.

Yeah, I think the first introduction to foiling was through Peter Trow also. He had the snowboard boots with the, you know, aluminum foil. And it was the funniest thing ever because he couldn't click in and fly the kite and then get out. And it's like kind of side on shore where we were and there's rocks on the beach. So someone else would launch his kite and he'd have the board on. And so then we'd pass it to him and he'd hook in and he'd be on his stomach.

Daniel Paronetto (09:19)
Yep.

Patrick Rebstock (09:38)
dragging out but he'd have to be signing his kite to get himself out and it's on a side on shore so he's like dragging himself over rocks trying to get out and so that was the first time we saw foiling and it looked terrible ⁓ mainly just could

Daniel Paronetto (09:40)
⁓ Jesus.

my god.

That looks like a, yeah, that looks like a lot of hard

work, man, to get in the door and do.

Patrick Rebstock (09:57)
Yeah, and that's mainly just because the way he was connected to it. And I think that came from big waves because those foils kind of wanted to go fast. And so they thought we needed that. But really, you didn't need it at all. I learned how to kite foil with that exact same foil on that board, just strapless. So it worked the same. And I think it was just a carryover from Hawaii where the people were riding big waves that they thought they needed those boots. But

Daniel Paronetto (10:05)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Patrick Rebstock (10:26)
it wasn't those foils, because those foils work fine strapless. So when I tried, I was learning strapless on a metal air chair foil, and it was super fun. A little short mass for back in the day. A lot of the toe ones were long. This one I think was like 28 inches.

Daniel Paronetto (10:42)
Yeah. What was the, ⁓ the, the front one, like the front wing, like, was it big, small, obviously super low aspect kind of shape, but how does it compare?

Patrick Rebstock (10:51)
Yeah,

I think it would probably be like an 800, but I don't really know. I still have ⁓ it. It has a triangle front and then turn downs on the tips. And so ⁓ the thought was that those are almost like your fins and then the center fuselage kind of comes down. And so that was like the thruster idea ⁓ to give yourself a little tracking. And honestly, those foils under power, they turn.

Daniel Paronetto (10:57)
Mm-hmm.

That's awesome.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (11:21)
just as well as any foils we have now. The thing is they don't have a lot of glide. So they need a powerful wave to push you or a kite or something like that. So if you're towing and the waves are juicy, those foils actually work phenomenally. So the air chair foils were way ahead of their time in terms of the amount of development that went into them. The early carbon foils that we got for kite racing and then just like normal cruising, they were actually a step down from those in terms of turning performance.

Daniel Paronetto (11:23)
Mm.

Gotcha.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (11:50)
⁓

And so then I, you know, I learned how to do it. I think a little bit more in the Oregon coast, I was able to borrow one of the carafinos. You know, I don't know if you heard the story, there was this guy and he sold everyone this like pre-order of these carafino foils and the shape was actually a diamond on the plate rather than a square. So you had to have a special plate or special board and he sold them all over.

Daniel Paronetto (12:13)
I've never heard of that.

Patrick Rebstock (12:19)
the world. He went all around and he was like the Johnny Appleseed of foiling. He got everyone excited. They all pre-ordered them and then only some of them came, maybe like half of the order. But there was this one on the Oregon coast and they let me borrow it. I just spent all day riding it. It was just so much fun. You're beating yourself up because you're just crashing. But yeah, mostly spent all the time on the kite and then we transitioned from kite foiling into toe foiling. We've done a lot of toe and foiling.

Daniel Paronetto (12:22)
Yeah, right.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (12:47)
probably still my favorite kind of foiling. Yeah, it's just you have the small board, you have the best waves, you catch them way out to sea, and we have just 10 miles of empty beach break with a jet ski out front. And so there's no one in the water, you can go to any peak. And so we've kind of like just had that to ourselves since we started doing it. So it's pretty incredible. And that's why

Daniel Paronetto (12:49)
It's so much. It's so good. Toe foiling is so much fun.

Hmm.

Amazing.

Patrick Rebstock (13:17)
Downwind is so great because you're not going back into a crowded lineup. You're still having an uncrowded lineup. that's a, as we get into these newer newer foil sports, it's awesome that they can keep the camaraderie of having your tow partner and this fun in the water, except now it's your shuttle buddy that goes up or, you know, even for pair winging, it's, you know, I call it the homiless downwinder. It's like when you don't have a friend, you can...

Daniel Paronetto (13:20)
Mm-hmm.

That's it.

Patrick Rebstock (13:45)
get yourself upwind and then you can go back downwind.

Daniel Paronetto (13:48)
That's it. That's it, man. I, ⁓ yeah, I, I still think that you should grab that OG foil, chuck it on a board and see if you can do something with it just to see how it feels, man. I would love to see someone grab one of those air chair foils today and just do something with it. And not that many people have that gear anymore. I don't know where those, those foils are around the world.

Patrick Rebstock (14:08)
Yeah, yeah,

you know, I have one of the metal ones, but the one that I would use is actually a carbon fiber one that was built out of the air chair mold on the mast. then Tony Lagos and I, the guy who designed stuff at Slingshot, we built some carbon fiber wings for that. And that was my first kite foil. And that one is still awesome. I still ride it. It's sweet for towing. So.

Daniel Paronetto (14:20)
Hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (14:35)
You could ride it with a kite, but anything where you don't have a power source or a big wave, it doesn't have the glide ratio, but the turning is phenomenal.

Daniel Paronetto (14:44)
That's so cool. So after towing, you started experimenting with sup downwinding or did you do something else in between?

Patrick Rebstock (14:54)
Yeah, the very, I mean, I would go up to Hood River in the summers because the wind kind of lets off here and that's the mecca of kiting up there. So we'd always kind of do springtime in California, then we'd go up to the Oregon coast and then go to the gorge. The very first downwind that we saw was Kai doing it and we were still on this long mast and these small foils that didn't really, you know, we were trying to paddle into stuff and it just like

Daniel Paronetto (14:59)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (15:22)
I remember Tony LaGosha saying like, you should go catch waves, go paddle in. And I was like, well, we just don't have the right foil for it. And this was even before Kai was going and doing all those crazy videos and stuff. It's just the gear had to get to the point where you're not on a 42 inch mass with a tiny foil. You needed more surf suited stuff. So I think the first time we saw downwinding that year, we went to the gorge and I immediately went to the hatchery on my...

Daniel Paronetto (15:33)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's crazy.

Patrick Rebstock (15:53)
think it was...

like a super wide, super, you know, fat ⁓ sup. I think it was a Fanatic sup, and I got my buddies and we thought like you needed the giant foil, because Kai was still riding the giant foil. So I think I brought a Maliko 200 and we did, ⁓ you know, one of the runs not quite from the tunnel, we did Swell City down to White Salmon, because there used to be a sandbar there when they blew out the dam. And so pretty much from the, I think it was 2018 or 19.

Daniel Paronetto (16:04)
Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (16:25)
⁓ started with this up trying to do it there but for me it was really ⁓ a Hood River only thing not in the ocean because just we had waves here that we could ride so we were just we weren't thinking about that there's just a of sharks and you're like I don't know it's kind of intense out here so we every time I go to Hood River it was all about downwind because kiting kind of sucks in the gorge unless you're riding the park ⁓ riding it on a surfboard which was my predominant thing it's just

Daniel Paronetto (16:32)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (16:55)
bumpy and choppy and none of the waves stand up. They all kind of like get up and then they back off, which is super frustrating for a kite surfer because there's no lip to hit. It's just the most anti-climactic thing ever. But now that foils were invented and we were kite foiling out there, we're like, this is super fun because now these are kind of rideable, but then you have your kite that, you know, kind of has too much pull. I think the first time I ever rode the waves out there, actually before,

Daniel Paronetto (17:06)
Yeah.

Mm.

Patrick Rebstock (17:24)
downwind supping was I held on the back of my buddy's kite lease. James Ropner was kiting and I towed on my, I think it was a wakeskate and my foil and then he towed me out and then I would let go and go into pumps and that was kind of like the aha moment, like this is sweet, but it was still on a tiny foil. ⁓ yeah, back to learning how to downwind sup. The hardest part was, you the boards go in circles when you try to paddle and I wasn't a supperer, I'm a.

Daniel Paronetto (17:34)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (17:54)
you know, a normal surfer. And so that was really a difficult transition, but that first run was really awkward on this big foil, because normally when you surf foil, like on a Lift 200 Classic, I think was the surf foil back then, it's small enough that you have to build speed and you earn your rise. This foil was so big that you could barely tell the difference between paddling and then actually being up on foil. So it was just super awkward. So I...

Daniel Paronetto (18:02)
Mmm.

Hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (18:22)
had limited success, got up on that first run, but it just didn't feel like foiling that I was used to. And so the next run did the same thing, same board, but went to my Lyft 200 Classic Surf Foil and ⁓ got up and was able to do it. And that was super fun, but still incredibly frustrating. So like you figured out that this is gonna be sweet.

Daniel Paronetto (18:29)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (18:47)
but I was frustrated by the paddle and just like kind of paddling in circles when I wasn't up. So I actually ditched the paddle, got my prone board and the irony is the boards were so bad for supping back in the day, is it turned me off of supping and I went back to proning. So the next like probably three or four years that I go back to Hood River and I'd go downwind the whole time I was there, I would do it on a prone board. So like my 4'6 normal prone board, hop in at Swell City or tunnel four.

Daniel Paronetto (18:49)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (19:16)
and then do that downwind run just on a prone board. But the conditions had to be pretty good and you had to be really patient. And as a surfer, you're like, where are the sets or what am I waiting for? And you're just sitting there sometimes 15, 20 minutes waiting for that perfect chip. And it was an awesome experience. I loved the idea of surfing in the river and it totally worked. We could surf and rip turns and we were on a tiny board and it was great, but we were more limited.

Daniel Paronetto (19:22)
Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah.

Patrick Rebstock (19:46)
in that space of the river and it wasn't until I was going, I think two or three years ago, ⁓ getting a ride up with my buddy, Matt El Sasser, and he's like, I'll drop you here at Swell City where you're gonna have the steep enough bumps to get up and I'm gonna go to the big kid spot and go to Drano.

Daniel Paronetto (19:48)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (20:09)
The thought of my friend who I kitesurfed with all these times, dropping me off at the kiddie pool and then he's gonna go do like one that's five times longer, ⁓ I immediately was like, have to do this up, because the SUP allows you to get up in those small bumps and then access the whole run. And so that kind of like started a fascination with downwinding. ⁓ And then I got myself a downwind SUP and then I learned how to do it in the ocean. The kind of the best way to

Daniel Paronetto (20:15)
Yep.

Hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (20:39)
go about that is ride it in the waves. I already know how to foil, like ride that, you know, sup in the waves and learn how to, you know, pump and control this big old board. And then, you know, learning the whole downwind experience was not very difficult because I already knew how to downwind. So I could read the bumps and I could ride the foils. And so the main thing was just learning how to paddle and then be how to be comfortable way out sea and then learn what is good conditions to go out in the ocean. Because in Hood River, it's just straightforward. You just hop in and it's good.

Daniel Paronetto (20:41)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (21:08)
Here we've learned so much in the last three years on what is actually good for downwinding. And it turns out a lot of conditions that you don't think are good for downwinding are great. It doesn't have to be super windy. There can be just swell in the water from wind somewhere else with no wind. So yeah, that's kind of been the progression is ⁓ every time a new sport comes out, you kind of hop on it and then you kind of learn that and you're so excited to be a beginner. So I think that started with

Daniel Paronetto (21:24)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (21:38)
the downwind's up, then I think winging came out and that was cool and a fun experience and it gave us access to downwinding here in the ocean and got us exploring it. But the wing's kind of in the way and you knew that you could kind of just downwind but this thing's in the way. But winging became a really cool tool for how I use a pair of wing today is sometimes you don't have the time to do a full round or you don't have any buddies, you could do the pack down.

Daniel Paronetto (21:41)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (22:08)
And so we were taking the wing and winging up with our paddles, packing it down and doing those kind of downwinders. So it was the shuttle-less idea. And I think I sold my wings as soon as the ParaWing came out and I was like, okay, I'm gonna wait for my sponsor Ozone to make one of those, because that looks awesome. don't wanna like, know, because my buddies were bringing pumps with them or trying to figure out how to re-inflate so you could do more than one lap. yeah, so as soon as...

Daniel Paronetto (22:16)
Mm-hmm.

Perfect. Yep.

Patrick Rebstock (22:37)
We're bugging them to make them like, please, come on, let's get a pair of wings so we can use it to do upwind downwinders. And now there's more uses for the pair of wing now that I've found out than just the upwind downwinders, but it's pretty fun.

Daniel Paronetto (22:44)
Mm-hmm.

That's cool because I

like the parrowing completely killed that pack down with the wing, didn't it? Like, there's no reason someone would get a wing now to do the pack down with the pair wings out there.

Patrick Rebstock (23:08)
I think if you've ridden a pair of wing that's as good as the pocket rocket for going upwind, like I think the ones that don't go upwind as well, maybe there's an advantage there. I have no problems ripping upwind on the pocket rocket. The more lit you get, the higher wind angle you do. it's just, I feel like I'm better than I am at winging upwind, because you have the...

Daniel Paronetto (23:18)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm.

Patrick Rebstock (23:38)
pocket racket's a little bit further away from you winging, so it's just like kiting, it's just dragging you upwind. So yeah, I think it's not needed anymore.

Daniel Paronetto (23:42)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's awesome,

tell us a little bit about your spot. mean, we're gonna, we're gonna start talking a little bit more about downwind specifically where you live. So I think geography is a big thing, right? For us to understand like your conditions and the shoreline and, and why the parrowing is being beneficial for you. So tell us a little bit about your coastline and how the parrowing is helping you unlock certain things in your downwind runs.

Patrick Rebstock (24:14)
Yeah, so where I live is the central coast of California and ⁓ the more well-known town is Pismo Beach. ⁓ But it's like kind of these five cities and you have a big sandy bay and then all the top you have a big point headland that sticks way out and there's a jetty way off the end and it's kind of like a fool's harbor where it's protected from northwest winds but south winds will put all the boats on the beach kind of idea.

And so you have your Northwest prevailing winds that come down and you're going to go across this whole bay. the kind of the cool thing about it is you're going to get caught by a sandy beach at the end. Like it may be a really long float, but eventually you're going to hit the hit the coastline. So it's very different than like a long straight coastline where you can pick your length of run, which is much more like down by Santa Barbara, where we have a long stretch of coastline where the winds a little bit more sides on or side chore.

Daniel Paronetto (24:53)
Perfect. Yeah.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (25:11)
up here the wind's pretty onshore at the end of the beach. And so what happens when you get to the very top, you wanna either paddle pretty far out past this jetty so you're not in the lee of this headland, or if you want to get out even further, that's like paddling in the bumps or you're cutting out when you're on a downwind sub. And ⁓ when you have the surf focus and you wanna ride all of the...

the waves to their potential, sometimes the best one's the left. It's not always a right. But if you're having to cut right, you're seeing waves that you really wanna ride and you're like, I can't go that direction, because it'll take me more in the inside where the bumps are smaller, because you wanna get in the bigger bumps. And so I found this thing called run line augmentation, I still, since this is a big bay, to the side it's about probably,

Daniel Paronetto (25:53)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (26:06)
five, six kilometers to the side. So we're pretty far out in the middle of the ocean during these runs. And so I use my downwind sup still for flotation and just the assurance of when the wind dies, I can still get up. But you can take this pair of wing and then just go from the start of the run and just cut way out to sea and get yourself into just the biggest and best bumps there are. And then just.

Daniel Paronetto (26:07)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (26:33)
If there's long interval ground swell coming in or lefts whatever, you're free to go wherever you want to go. You're not kind of like always going right. And so ⁓ it gives you a, yeah, go for it.

Daniel Paronetto (26:40)
Mm-hmm.

How far into the ocean do

you go? Like how long do you ride the pair owing for?

Patrick Rebstock (26:50)
⁓ It's probably only a couple of minutes because you're riding pretty fast on a pair of wings. In the beginning it's about a 30 minute paddle out if you're paddling on your stomach and it's in the lee of a headland. So you're in shallow water. If it's really low tide you can walk it which is nice. But usually you paddle out and you get to this jetty. That is sometimes windy and that's really lucky and you can zoom out on a pair of wings and skip that paddle which is really nice.

Daniel Paronetto (26:54)
Mm.

Patrick Rebstock (27:18)
It's not always windy in there, so sometimes you still have to paddle it. ⁓ But the main thing is from that jetty out into the middle of ocean, it'll probably all go a mile or two to just get yourself, no.

Daniel Paronetto (27:19)
Yeah.

start even that long is just like doing that without

the power wing takes forever. Or you just start doing you just start cutting or as you start like with you know the small bumps and you just.

Patrick Rebstock (27:34)
⁓ in it-

Yeah,

as you get more advanced, it's not a big deal. If you get up right away, you can cut, and then this headland hasn't had time to bend all the bumps in and refract. But I've noticed with beginners, if they start where the advanced person starts, they get trapped on the inside, and then they don't get up, and then the bumps wrap in, and the wind wraps in, and they're always trapped in the lead the whole time, and then they're struggling once they do get up, because the bumps are bad. And so...

Daniel Paronetto (27:50)
Hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (28:07)
Not only is it a good thing for an advanced rider who wants to get those bigger bumps, it's actually been a great tool for the beginners that are wanting to learn how to paddle or pair wing, is they can get out from the very beginning and then be in those good bumps, which is gonna make that learning process even easier, then they can, know, because they don't have the ability to cut, or it takes them five minutes to get up, 10 minutes to get up. ⁓ So that's kinda how I've been using it here is,

getting way out to sea and it's a luxury. Like you don't need to do it but it's pretty sweet to not have to paddle out by yourself when you do a solo run or something like that and just zoom out into the middle of ocean. And then it definitely opens up the line choice for surfing.

Daniel Paronetto (28:51)
What was, have you ever encountered any hairy experiences out there with the parrowing?

Patrick Rebstock (28:57)
⁓ No, luckily, I think the only times that the pairwing has been kind of hairy is when it's super light wind and you're just like floating there. Like I avoid the surf with the pairwing. Let me just say that. I haven't found a really great wave that's like side to our wind where you can, you know, ride the wave and then kick out and then, you know, be kind of not in the impact zone where here I've only been using it.

Daniel Paronetto (29:12)
Hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (29:26)
it's straight on shore, so if you ride waves, you're now in 50 yards of impact zone, and there's no way to deploy it really easily and get back out. So the harriest situations with a pair of wing are definitely in the surf, because it's hard to stow or put under your board and get out there. But yeah, knowing the open ocean, not really. It's about planning to not have harry situations. It's about preparation, I guess.

because I think it would get hairy, like in our windy season, the wind's a little bit more predictable, but as you get more into the shoulder seasons, the wind can kind of back off on the beach or switch and go offshore or just die completely. And that, if you were solely reliant on a pair of wing, would be a dangerous situation, but luckily I kind of try and avoid that by planning ahead and just being able to ride the bumps without the wind with the paddle as a backup.

Daniel Paronetto (29:55)
It is, yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah. And let's, let's talk about that because I think safety is probably one of the main concerns in down-winding, especially if you're doing something that's, you know, over 15, 20 Ks. think that starts to become an issue. If you're going way out to sea, if you're not close to shore, those kinds of things can present some, you know, unique challenges. So if you are someone who's looking to get into down-winding with the para wing,

let's say you have some sort of foiling experience, because I don't think that's going to be your first form of foiling. ⁓ What do you recommend? What do you recommend in terms of safety and gear to take out?

Patrick Rebstock (31:04)
Yeah, well I think this is really just dependent on your location. ⁓ Some places are going to be pretty safe because you have something that's with side-shore wind and you can kind of just get out just like you would, you know, say you're coming from Wayne, you go out and have a session and you're never that far away from the coastline. There's a lot of spots like in Southern California, LA, where you can get out and you're a hundred meters from the beach and you can just ride along the shoreline.

Safety is not as big of a concern if you're that close to shore and you can get out throughout the whole thing. I think here it doesn't even matter if you run super long, it just amounts, ⁓ it's more about could you get in in case the wind dies? And there's a few things that can really help you with that. ⁓ One thing is flotation. ⁓ Flotation is key.

Daniel Paronetto (31:34)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (32:00)
being highly visible is key. So, like, say if you're coming from winging, you might not have experience with all of the things that are important when you're far out to sea. You wanna be able to see your buddies, you wanna be able to communicate with them, and if you need, or say you lose your board or something, you wanna be able to float and call for help, you know, because leashes snap, stuff like that happens. Paddles break, pair of wings get tangled around your foil, all that stuff, so.

⁓ Yeah, big safety things are probably a waterproof phone case for communication so you can call for help. If you really need, you can have one of those little PLBs. a ⁓ phone works great when you are in runs that have reception. We have a longer run that there's no reception out there, so you need to have a VHF radio for communication there. But ⁓ mostly just phone case, maybe bring a snack and water, and be warm enough.

Daniel Paronetto (32:36)
Yeah, it's good.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (32:56)
Most of the time when we're downwinding, ⁓ you're really hot when you're going, and then you'd be cold if you stopped. so just, yeah, when you're learning and you could have shockers or different stuff, you're gonna be inserting this ton of energy, but if you bonk out out there and then you're just paddling or floating for a long time, you wanna make sure that you're not gonna get too cold if you're in a place where there's no escape plan. ⁓

Daniel Paronetto (33:03)
That's a great point.

Patrick Rebstock (33:23)
I guess probably the biggest thing for safety is go where you're close to shore. Don't do these big committed open ocean runs until you have experience. So find that location, maybe travel to it where you're doing bite sized runs. We have ⁓ a lot of opportunities to get stuck out there and ⁓ it's just, yeah, it's.

Daniel Paronetto (33:32)
Ahem.

And it will happen, It will happen.

If you're prepared, it's going to hurt less, but you're going to float when you're starting. You're going to float for an hour.

Patrick Rebstock (33:54)
Yeah.

Yeah, and that's fine. And like, you know you're gonna float for an hour when you're starting, because you're not getting up, you're just kind of learning. But we've all went through that with downwind supping. And I think the point of this podcast is pair winging. And the pair winging is so much easier than downwind supping. And it's something that you can get up and then get yourself way out there where you might only get out there if you were good at downwind supping. And so the key is

Daniel Paronetto (33:59)
Mmm. Mmm.

Great point.

Patrick Rebstock (34:27)
not to get yourself over your head without all the preparation and suffering that came with all this learning on safety, which is having your high vids, having your flotation, having your communication. And ⁓ I think as communicators, we have the ability to share this information that there's ways to not get stuck at sea. And if you're going and jumping into the pair-winding down-winding game,

Daniel Paronetto (34:33)
Mm.

Patrick Rebstock (34:54)
I would say don't just go downwind with it. I would say learn how to pair-wing, learn how to stay upwind, then learn how to go upwind and just get like a quarter mile, a half mile, a mile upwind, because then if you need a float for a mile, it's not much. And if it's an on-shore spot, even better, because then you're for sure going to come back to land. So do these bite-sized small runs. I think that's much more safe and approachable from a pair-winging standpoint.

Daniel Paronetto (35:01)
Hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (35:24)
than doing what I did where I just launched a 10 mile run with my parawing out there and I was like, I'm gonna go do this today, but I brought a paddle for backup because then I knew if it all went bad, ⁓ I could throw it in the bag and then go and do what I normally do. But if your skills are not normally coming from downwind supping, I would approach it differently and do it where you do in the upwind downwinders. You stay close to one spot. Coming from winging, forecasting,

Daniel Paronetto (35:49)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (35:54)
or kiting or anything where you do a normal wind sport, you're kind of forecasting for one location and these pair of wings are reliant on the wind. They're not able to work as soon as the wind dies. So when you're used to forecasting for one location, that's easy. You're like, I'm gonna be out there this amount of time period. It looks like it's gonna be windy on the iKiteSurf app. That's great. And so that's great for upwind, downwinders where you're staying in one spot. For people that haven't...

Daniel Paronetto (35:59)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (36:23)
gone into further downwind, downwinding and forecasting is a complicated thing. So you need to look at the wind from the start, the wind in the middle, and the wind at the end at different time periods. So you may be starting when it's not as windy and it may get really windy in the beginning and then die by the end. And with a pair of wing, that's really risky because it might be super light and you can't get up. So a lot of pair of wingers that don't have paddle skills, they're bringing a bigger size.

Daniel Paronetto (36:28)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Patrick Rebstock (36:52)
As a backup in like, you know the back of their you know, PFD But if the wing completely dies, that's not gonna help you or if it goes offshore

Daniel Paronetto (36:56)
Mm-hmm.

Even

yeah, even sub 10 knots, man, even the biggest parrowing in sub 10 knots, man. It's not great. It's not going to fly well. It'll take you back to shore. It'll do like a safety rescue kind of thing, but you're not going to be, you know, ripping out there or anything like that. But that's a great point. Just understanding conditions a little more understanding what makes a good downwind or condition like swell. mean, when you're, when you're riding with the wing, you don't necessarily know about.

groundswell versus windswell, you kind of have an idea about it, but you know, a day that, you know, it's pretty big swell. It's not that easy to get up. It's harder to stay with the bumps. The gear that you're riding changes significantly. So maybe tell us a little bit about that experience as well. Like how does groundswell and windswell affect the gear that you're riding out there?

Patrick Rebstock (37:51)
Yeah, so I've been kind of a stickler for sticking to a small board in downwind supping. I've kind of stayed at that 7'2", 105 liter board. And so that kind of dictates a little bit of the rest of my gear choice, because I want to turn as hard as I can. And that's actually been a good transition for pair winging, that's my subboard is not an eight foot board that's ridiculous. It's a board that's already focused on just turning potential.

I would say the way that you're, you know, for conditions and long interval versus short interval, short interval bumps are just so much easier to read, they're easier to ride, they're more predictable. ⁓ Even lighter wind where it's just smaller bumps, they're usually steeper and easier. So you're going to want to go out on those days that are kind of like 20 miles an hour. They're not the 35 and nuking days when you're

when you're a beginner. You want that easy to read little like wave storm, push me into a little wave and I can see it and ride it. ⁓ As soon as you start getting into the ⁓ longer interval bumps or if there's any other swell in the water, those swells can confuse you if you don't know what to look for. And so what happens is they're moving at different speeds and ⁓ the shorter interval bumps that are kind of more lined up and they're more organized, ⁓

kind of can get cleaned out and sometimes they're still there but the long interval bumps kind of come in and they come faster and they're a bigger mound that like the little bumps are in and on that as that's moving and so I've found a lot of people that try and go out even me included if you go out on a long interval day that the surface bombing you feel completely lost until you're like pretty experienced and so that same run

Daniel Paronetto (39:43)
Yeah.

Patrick Rebstock (39:49)
could be really friendly one day and then could be very challenging the other day. so foil choice kind of plays into that. As we are learning how to do these sports, we want to have bigger foils because it's either hard to get up with a sup or hard to get up with a pair of wing. You don't want to have a super huge pair of wing because then you're just too lit to go up wind. So we tend to have a little bit bigger foil when we're learning. And then the problem is, or not the problem, but

Daniel Paronetto (40:03)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (40:18)
that suits those shorter interval just wind bumps. As soon as you get into those longer interval bumps, they're moving faster and so you kind of want to be on a smaller foil, which is great. And then it's easier to downwind once you're doing that and you have those skills. But when you need to pump through a lull or you need to get up when the wind's lighter, now all of a sudden you're having more trouble with the pair when you get up. So yeah, I mean.

Daniel Paronetto (40:38)
Hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (40:46)
Stick to the, if you can, ⁓ stick to just the wind bumps and no swell when you're learning. You're gonna have a much better time.

Daniel Paronetto (40:53)
Yeah.

Yeah. Big swell is tough, man. And the other thing that, it changes a lot is just the speed that you're riding on those big days, man, you're going super fast and you're just trying to keep up with the ground swell because in between, if you, know, if you peel back, the troughs are long and you have to really like make those decisions very quickly, very early to not get bogged down in that in between zone or.

⁓ the no man's land like Dave West talk about the no man's land. lot ⁓ of people don't think about that, but the troughs are enormous, man. And pumping with a small foil, start losing speed, losing speed to the point where then you can't even get to the one behind, because you're just too slow to catch it. It's tricky.

Patrick Rebstock (41:39)
Yeah, so the different intervals as well. So when they're shorter interval, you're looking closer and you're making your judgments and reading the bumps where it's in a closer thing, you're riding a bigger foil. Usually everything's moving slower. So you can make your decisions on where to go or if you make a completely bad decision, the next bump is very close and you don't have to go very far. What we're talking about when the long interval goes,

Daniel Paronetto (41:46)
Mm.

Patrick Rebstock (42:07)
not only are you riding a smaller foil and going faster, you need to look way far ahead into the distance. You can't look close because things are happening way out there and then you're also going so much faster. So the speed at which you need to make decisions is happening faster and you also need to look way out on the horizon because what you're gonna glide to is different. So pretty much when you get a ton of speed, you need to not like hang on to something forever. You need to use that speed to like go somewhere.

Daniel Paronetto (42:28)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (42:35)
⁓ And so that's you know, it just gets exponentially more difficult, but as soon as you get the skills, it's awesome ⁓ Yeah, but

Daniel Paronetto (42:41)
it's awesome. It's the best. It's it's yeah. And everybody

wants to get there, but the pattern recognition changes. Absolutely. Like that those small patterns become, you know, times 10. And then you have to get that awareness. And it's, it, it's a little bit about understanding the ocean, understanding conditions a little bit more. And that's part of the learning into down-winding that people can't just rock up and expect to just dominate. It's it's lapse, it's time, it's experience and it's interest as well. think you need to be interested in it.

Patrick Rebstock (42:54)
Yeah.

Daniel Paronetto (43:11)
You need to have a look and research and like listen to these kind of more experienced people, you know, and even I love being like the worst person in my crew because I am always learning from the people in front of me. So tag along with someone experienced, you know, that's probably the best thing you could ever do.

Patrick Rebstock (43:16)
Yeah.

Yeah, when I first, you know, started learning or like, you know, I was getting my downwind subboard and I knew that I wanted to do in the ocean. I was just listening to everything, watching anything like anything that James Casey had up or any footage of anything. I was thinking about it, listening to it at night as a podcast, whatever I could do and just could not get enough because I wanted to kind of first of all, I was so excited that like

Daniel Paronetto (43:45)
Yep.

Patrick Rebstock (43:58)
the open ocean might be surfable. And it's like, now we could potentially have endless point breaks that are phenomenal all over in the ocean. But also it's like, you wanna, it's a difficult thing to do. And like you said, you really need to want it. And like, it's a pinnacle sport. You've come from kite surfing, surfing, kite surfing, wakeboarding, foiling.

Daniel Paronetto (44:00)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (44:23)
Crone foiling, all these skills kinda come together to do the downwindings. So it's like a pinnacle sport. You not only need to know how to do those sports, but you kinda need to be pretty good at them to build and put together. Like I would say, parawinging, you need to know how to probably wing to learn how to free fly and learn how to ride the bum. So it's not the actual skill of winging. You do get a little bit with getting up on the board, but it's more.

Daniel Paronetto (44:35)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (44:52)
that access to getting out in the bumps and not having to wait for someone on jet ski. Jet ski works great too, but you're gonna not get as many opportunities as you would for winging. So, like, you gotta first learn winging and learn how to free fly in the bumps. Because if you go out there on a pair of wing, packing away is kind of a difficult task. It's something for an advanced boiler. It's not something for someone who's just doing it. So it's actually harder to kind of learn how to downwind with just a pair of wing without having to go winging first.

Daniel Paronetto (44:54)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Patrick Rebstock (45:21)
And then you also want to probably go prone because you want to learn how to ride this board, paddle in, and then like really be starved for, I have to stay up. You know, like nothing, nothing puts your heart rate through the roof than saying like, the next wave is over there and it's the biggest one. I need to get to it. And that's like how you learn. Yeah. Like, so if, if you just winged, maybe free flying, you would get that. But since you can grab it again,

Daniel Paronetto (45:28)
Hmm

Pump, yeah.

You

You'll get there.

Patrick Rebstock (45:50)
People tend to, you really need to be like, I'm not gonna grab it and ride it until you come down off foil, because all of your learning happens in that last couple percent, because everything's easy when it's easy, but as soon as you are needing to link that last bit as well, you need to milk the energy out of it. And then you get slow and you learn, ⁓ here's the bottom end of my foil, I can start actually really feeling the lift here, and as soon as I go over there, I really lost all that.

Daniel Paronetto (45:59)
Mmm.

Patrick Rebstock (46:19)
And so you get into this sense of where is my energy from the ocean? And if you're going fast and just flying, say you went really fast with the wing and you bear off and you're like, whee! You're not really generating ⁓ power from the swells. And then if you grab back again, maybe you never got to that, this is where I really need to be efficient and feel the energy. It's like,

Daniel Paronetto (46:37)
Mmm.

Patrick Rebstock (46:49)
It's a conundrum of having too much speed and too much energy to not slow down and then feel where the energy and the swells are.

Daniel Paronetto (46:56)
Yeah,

that's, that's such a good point, man. And I think, ⁓ understanding that transition from getting your power and your energy from the wind or a sail to then transferring that to getting your wind and your power from the foil and the energy in the water. That takes time. And I remember many times, like I was going very slow and you know, you just punch through the water because you maybe pump a little bit too, too strong. Like, but now.

I can ride slow and I know that I have to be sensitive. have to be gentle until I feel something that I'm like, all right, I'm back into the, to where I need to be. And those things, if you don't really commit to either prone or something like that, where you mentioned this, like I want to go out there and get the next wave, but you got to dig and that little point where you're digging deep. yeah, you don't, you don't get that experience with, with anything else. You just really need to be in there with nothing in your hands and.

Patrick Rebstock (47:54)
Yeah, and to be honest, when you're down winning, you're out in the ocean. You don't want to be down, not foiling. You want to be up foiling because there's animals out there, you're exposed, you want to be doing the sport. And so the better prepared you can be, ⁓ if you have the skills of being able to say if you really can't read the swells very well, but you can pump, you can get yourself to this next one that's obvious.

Daniel Paronetto (48:03)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Patrick Rebstock (48:24)
then you can hone your skills of reading the bumps. so that's like having those different skill sets, even if it's not surfing really aggressively and doing all this stuff, but knowing how to do a turn that's functional, that slows yourself down intentionally to then draw yourself up onto a bump rather than only having to go forward. You can do functional turns that allow you to make the process of like,

Daniel Paronetto (48:38)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (48:53)
reading and flowing with the bumps so much easier, all those little skills are really important and I feel like a lot of people that come from winging, they don't have that much balance of not holding onto something. And if they do, they're still getting a little bit of balance from it and it's dragging them a little bit downwind. And the kind of turns that they're doing are, don't, almost like surf turns translate better into downwinding when you've like stashed the pair of wing away because

Daniel Paronetto (49:07)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

100%.

Patrick Rebstock (49:22)
You can like kind of do little ones or big ones and all this stuff and all these things. You want to be able to position yourself with these maneuvers because it's not just a down the line wave endlessly. You need to connect the different bumps and getting yourself into the position where you end a turn and now you're high on the bump and then you can think about and do the next thing is really critical. You don't want to turn and then just run into the bump in front of you. And so I feel like a lot of people that

are coming at it without the surf or the prone perspective. A lot of their turns, they don't know how to do a sharp turn that pulls themselves back up onto the face. Yep.

Daniel Paronetto (49:59)
Yeah.

and generating speed with turns is something that you learn surfing very well. So you know that if you're turning, you can build up speed that way. You don't necessarily have to pump like, yeah, those skills, man, countless hours out there in the water. ⁓ but I do think that having the pair of wing will help you build those skills. Right? So you can grab the pair of wing, park your car.

And you can ride out there and then just stow the pair of wing or just depower it and see how far you can pump. Like it's, can do that with the wing as well, but maybe you have to do an anchor drop and all that stuff with the pair wing. You can, you can build up those skills pretty quickly. Um, but you did mention before that packing down the pair wing while down winding is also a task on its own. Right? So tell us a little bit about how that progression went from the first pack down to where you are today.

Patrick Rebstock (50:47)
Yeah.

Uh, you know, honestly, uh, like we talked about earlier and flying the kite on the beach endlessly. I, you know, got taught from a friend, uh, you know, actually in the street after a downwind run, he, had a pair of wing there and he let me fly it and he showed me how to pack down. I think the technique he did was, uh, put your hand a little bit further back on the bar and take all the lines and, you know, grab them at the bar. So you get all of them. And it was like a rear line stow. So you get all of them and.

when you're downwinding, you kinda drop downwind and you slacken off the power in a pair of wings. It's not like you're trying to stow it when you're edging across and I understood that from kiting. So my first stow to now I think I used that rear line stow in the beginning and I already had all the confidence on foil. So as soon as I bared off and stowed it to this point, I was

able to switch fully into downwind mode and then I can comfortably downwind for 15 kilometers and not fall. And so I could focus on the stowing process. And so now I think I tend to use the front lines a little bit more. And the way I do it is because sometimes it's really windy, sometimes that front line stow is pretty effective at accordioning the front of the pair wing. Sometimes with the rear line stow,

It works pretty well, but if it's just absolutely nuking, sometimes the front center can catch them and it can catch and then you're like, maybe I wanna do it again to do cleaner. So I've switched to mainly when it's really windy doing either all of the lines on the center line or those four centers on the pocket racket. So I usually grab my bar, I shuck up all the way up to the thing, to the pair wing, and so now I have that kind of the pleated ⁓ leading edge where it has those little battens.

they kind of fold together and hold pretty nicely in this hand. I take my bar and I put it under my armpit. So I'm separating the parrowing part of it and then the bar and lines. And I've seen that some people wrap them up and they do that. I haven't done that and I think that it's worked really well for me for being able to redeploy. Because if you're doing it downwind or you're out in the sea, you don't want to pull this thing out and have it be a tangled mess.

Daniel Paronetto (52:51)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (53:20)
What I do is I have this under the thing and then I break it down. So when you're learning how to downwind, it's hard to stay up. But even if you're good, you still wanna stay up. And so you might as well make it as easy as you can on yourself. And so what I do is I, you know, I'm foiling along, I bear off like we talked about before. Don't go so fast on pairwing that you're towing yourself in where now you're just like, cause you were just under sail, like coming from, like.

Daniel Paronetto (53:44)
Mmm.

Patrick Rebstock (53:48)
that's a superpower, you're just like have endless speed and energy, now you're gonna switch modes into downwind. You almost wanna just bear off gently so you can transition into riding because going from under sail to on foil without power is a difficult transition even for someone who knows how to do both. So you might as well make it easier, don't slingshot yourself in with endless speed because usually you'll just go too fast, run into the one in front and then you'll be in trouble.

Daniel Paronetto (54:07)
Mm-hmm.

Great

tip.

Patrick Rebstock (54:17)
I usually

try and slow down and just get onto the bump like I would, so stay high. I've shucked that first one and then I'll go ahead and start grabbing this, so it's still under my arm. I'll grab the front and then I'll kind of collapse the canopy together. It probably takes a couple seconds, but you're in no rush because you're more focused on the reading of the bumps and riding them rather than packing this thing up. We're not riding a wave that's gonna be over in

Daniel Paronetto (54:37)
Hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (54:45)
then know 30 seconds, this downwind run is gonna last 30 minutes. So might as well do it well and not fall off. So you're looking more at the bumps than you are at pair of wing, you kind of fold it up, and what I do is then have this kind of collapsed fall. I'll then be like, okay, now I'm good, I could stow it right now, or I'll peel off because when you're downwinding it's almost always more predictable to peel off and know there's a bump right there.

Daniel Paronetto (55:06)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (55:12)
and then set yourself up for another time period of having something that's predictable where you don't really need to think about it. you're, know, from downwinds up in there, any kind of downwinding, it's always kind of good to peel off, reset, get high, and then have some runway ahead of you to do the task at hand where a little bit of your concentration is gonna go away from downwinding and now into putting this thing into your kangaroo pouch. So once I have this little ball, the line's still dangling out, the bar's under my arm, I'll then bear off,

Daniel Paronetto (55:28)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (55:41)
peel off, find a new bump, then I'll go ahead and sew. And if you want and you're learning, go ahead and focus on downwind a couple more seconds, think about peeling off, get that next one, and so you break this down. And then what I do is so now I'm up at the top of my next bump, so I've peeled off again, I grab the lines like this and I kind of like organize them so that the pair of wings in the pouch and then I have

Daniel Paronetto (55:52)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (56:09)
the bar up on top and the goal of what I'm trying to do is separate the pair of wing from the bar. So if I ever need to redeploy, I can be on foil or not and pull the bar out separate than the pair of wing and get that ready. Check the lines, look at it. is it good to go? Get the red on the front and then I can pull the pair of wing out and so I can know that I'm good to go. So what I'm doing is I'm kind of organizing the lines.

Daniel Paronetto (56:29)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (56:36)
and I set those in the pair of wings. It's kind of just one motion. They don't need to be perfect, but you kind of put them in there and then you set the bar on top. And then I put the little Velcro tab. I'm using the Ozone Stash Belt, which is, it's a good one even if you don't use the Ozone pair of wings, which I like them. Get that Stash Belt, because I, yeah. The other ones are annoying and they like, you go to stash it and the stash part isn't flexible enough, so then you pull the whole belt out.

Daniel Paronetto (56:48)
It's awesome.

Yeah, that's the only one I use these days. It's, yeah, it's the best.

Mmm.

Patrick Rebstock (57:05)
and you go to Sash it and the pair just goes behind the whole thing. That was the, I think the flow one, you know, cause it wasn't stretchy enough, I'd end up like trying to stuff it in there. I'm like, ⁓ no, that's my wetsuit. You know, that's not my Sash. Yeah. Exactly.

Daniel Paronetto (57:11)
Yeah.

Yeah. And then you need two hands to open it and tuck it in. And then it's just, yeah. Yeah. Look, the,

the ozone one, they really nailed it. I really liked the, the material in the back that makes it easy to turn it around against neoprene as well. It's very slidey. And initially I thought, yeah, I was, I was like, man, I like coming from kite surfing. was like, I want something that's grippy. That's not going to ride up. Cause you know, that's, know, we hate harnesses that come up and now like having it spin around easily is.

Patrick Rebstock (57:32)
Yeah, they sell a hook for it.

Daniel Paronetto (57:45)
Absolutely spot on. have ⁓ the kite line knife. If you get into a little pickle, that's there as well. ⁓ Board leash attachments. Yeah, it's, it's pretty spot on.

Patrick Rebstock (57:57)
Yeah,

the board leash is awesome and the fact that it slides around is pretty key because, you know, your board leash is either on one side and you flip it around when you're going upwind with a pair of wing with a hook on the front. And then, you know, who cares where your leash is while you're going upwind because upwind is just, you know, that's work to get your glory that is the downwind. And then you kind of swap the pack around so your leash is, know, on the correct side for your downwind. So you can kind of focus on that. But yeah, that's kind of my thought process on the snow is

Daniel Paronetto (58:10)
Mm.

Patrick Rebstock (58:26)
I have the pair wing down and in there and separate from the lines which is, I haven't really seen too many people do this but it's worked great for me because then say I'm, if I'm going upwind downwinds and I'm approaching the shore that now there's waves, I'll be on foil, open it up, pull the bar out, check all my lines and then like, they look good. Then you don't even have to reach in there and grab it, you can kind of just pop the pair wing out and then as you're still going downwind,

Daniel Paronetto (58:32)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (58:53)
I'll drop it out and look at it and then as I want to put more pressure on it, if it's not tangled, I'll then kind of bear up into the wind and then add tension to it. But if you keep going at it downwind on bumps, you can kind of keep it slack and look at it, which I've heard, I think Greg talk about this, instead of just popping it out and be like, woo, this is awesome, but then if it's tangled, it's gonna start downloping or whatever. That method of separating.

Daniel Paronetto (59:12)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, like shooting it out, yeah.

Patrick Rebstock (59:23)
the bar stow with the pair wing makes it easier to stay up on the bumps because you can do one short task at a time. So you're like put it in and then relook at the bumps and then put the bar in and then it also helps to break the ⁓ deploying back into steps.

Daniel Paronetto (59:24)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's awesome, man. And it's, it's the moment. It's the most critical moment really in the downwind run for you to get wrong is that transition. Cause I remember at the start, just because I didn't have the movements, right. was trying to do it too quickly and trying to get rid of it too early. You could just hold onto that thing in your hand for a minute. If you want to get a sense of what the bumps are doing, the patterns are doing, get used to the conditions. And then you're like, all right, I got this. know where I'm at. I know the speed. I know, you know, like the timing and then you start packing.

it in. Like that could work as well. It's just slowing it down, isn't it?

Patrick Rebstock (1:00:13)
Yeah, it's a great idea to not pack it away. I feel pretty comfortable as soon as I'm on my bump to make it work. But I find pair winging out and then packing it away actually a much more difficult transition into downwining than paddling up where you're just out there, you're slow, you're assessing the conditions, then you're like, I caught this. So it's just like catching a wave and now I'm up and I'm going and you're always just going this beat of the bumps. You're never sailing super fast and

Daniel Paronetto (1:00:19)
Mm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:00:43)
towing yourself in and then slowly slowing down. You're like, no, I went too fast and stuff. So if you're not confident in downwinding like what you said, go ahead, slow down before you stow it, then hold it in your hands and get a sense because whenever you put it in the pouch, it's harder to get a clean redeploy and you might as well just have it there so as you're learning, can pop it back up if you fall again.

Daniel Paronetto (1:00:47)
Yep, no, ⁓

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:01:12)
have less chance of tangles. So

Daniel Paronetto (1:01:14)
Yeah.

Patrick Rebstock (1:01:14)
think that's a good idea to like ease yourself into reading the bumps for that day, because maybe they're totally different. Maybe there is long interval that you need to account for that you didn't see on the forecast. Or maybe it's, know, whatever, there's a whole bunch of seaweed that's out there that's gonna keep catching you and you wanna deal with it. So yeah, I think that's a great idea for learning is keeping it, you know, in your hand for a while and taking your time.

Daniel Paronetto (1:01:30)
Mmm.

Yeah. Taking your time. And I think one of the things that I also think you have a lot of experience with now is when you're packing everything, you have a paddle in your back. You have the parrowing in your pouch. You have a PFD. What are you using to connect, you know, your paddle to your back and what's the technique of actually going from parrowing stow. Now I got the paddle out and I'm riding with the paddle. Cause you always have the paddle out even.

when you're doing a parrowing ⁓ run, don't you?

Patrick Rebstock (1:02:11)
Yeah, so let me clarify. When I do, like the reason I have the paddle with me is because I like it for surfing and turning is kind of nice and it's a useful maneuver. you have a crazy breach on a wave or something, you can kind of like fling it out like a ⁓ cougar tail or something to balance yourself and recover from something where if you didn't have that, you'd probably eat it. But I don't use a paddle when I'm doing upwind, downwinders where it's straight on shore at my beach.

and I'm just limiting myself to only going out, say, a mile, and I'll do quicker laps so I don't spend, you know, endless amount of time, ⁓ you know, just going out to sea, because then I'm like, I don't trust the wind out here. So I use the paddle as a backup whenever I'm going like point A to point B and I'm covering distances because I don't know if the wind's gonna totally shut off or if it's only windy in the very beginning. I can still do a 20 kilometer run with the pair of wing and

Daniel Paronetto (1:02:48)
Mmm, yeah.

Patrick Rebstock (1:03:09)
cut out weight out to C to get that great run for the whole time and then I can just use the three, not think, is it gonna get lighter, I'd take a bigger one. So yeah, so whenever I'm doing point A to point B, I'm taking ⁓ my paddle with me. I use bike inner tube and electrical tape, so I kind of like do it so it's tight because I don't want it flapping around once I'm actually downwinding. I just want this like kind seamless little deal. And then I'll just put that over and it's kind of.

Daniel Paronetto (1:03:18)
Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:03:38)
lower on my chest right here so it's kinda on my PFD and that stays really tight. The paddle's down and you wanna do the bike inner tube so the paddle is facing away from you, not like this way, you know, when you're doing the tape job. so I'll get up, usually with our wind direction, I'll get up toe side. And so that's a benefit of pair winging compared to winging. It's way easier to get up toe side than it was winging or, you know,

Daniel Paronetto (1:03:49)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Patrick Rebstock (1:04:07)
It's like you hold it with one hand and it's more your board, like a downwind get up than anything. You just kind of hold the pair of wing and you pump it up. that helps kind of the paddle stays out of the way when you're getting up toe side that way or heel side. ⁓ I'll go out, do my rod and line augmentation whether that's here in Pismo because I just want to get cheap, know, not have to do the paddle and get a little bit further out.

Daniel Paronetto (1:04:08)
One hand, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:04:34)
or if I'm down in Santa Barbara and I just want to get way out and ⁓ improve the run line, it's two on shore, like we were just up in Oregon and the wind's way too on shore to even do a sup downwind run. It just doesn't work, you can't get down the coast. So we'll kind of take it way out to make a side on shore run possible down the coast. But yeah, in that case, whenever I'm pair winging, I'll have the paddle across my chest and then I'll stow it.

Daniel Paronetto (1:04:46)
Yeah, right.

Patrick Rebstock (1:05:00)
and I'll be up on foil and then I just kind of grab it and then pull it off and then I have it in my hand. Yeah, and so like, like.

Daniel Paronetto (1:05:05)
writing. Do you ever feel that the wind

kind of catches the paddle a little bit and it becomes a little bit weird when you're riding it out?

Patrick Rebstock (1:05:14)
No, but I wouldn't find that a good solution for riding with it upwind. would find, like say if I'm doing a couple tacks upwind or like, you know, trying to earn ground, I wouldn't have a paddle with me because it's too annoying. But if I'm just kind of getting out, I don't even need to go upwind, I'm just going, you know, out. It's not very noticeable. You notice it most when you're down on the board and you're going to get up, you just.

Daniel Paronetto (1:05:15)
Ahem.

Mm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:05:40)
have your paddle stick out a little bit higher than your head and you're just like, okay, don't catch that on the bridle when you're flying your pair of wings. Usually when you're flying your pair of wings, you kind of leave it where one little part of it's touching the water as you put your other hand on the board. As long as you're flying it like that, you can kind of avoid the top half of your paddle from poking it. So yeah, no, I wouldn't go a ton of wind.

Daniel Paronetto (1:05:41)
Yep.

Patrick Rebstock (1:06:08)
but it's not that annoying for just doing a reach out. It's pretty easy.

Daniel Paronetto (1:06:11)
Yeah, because I think a lot of people and

some of my mates here do that as well, ⁓ that they're learning, they'll take the parrowing out and they'll do a couple of legs up wind. And because they're just learning how to get on foil with the paddle, you know, a one kilometer run down to shore is actually useful for them still. So just knowing where to position that properly. But I think what you explained is pretty good and trying to get it out of the wind as much as possible. Cause it does, it's a little sale as well, but.

Patrick Rebstock (1:06:27)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, if it's down, it's

kind of not too bad. I did try a three-piece paddle in the beginning because I just wanted to try a pair of winging with hands free and see, everyone's like, oh, it's so awesome to be hands free and going down wind. I was like, okay, let's try it out. And I thought it'd be better to learn pair of winging without the paddle over the side. I want to just do it my first time hands free. So I put the three-piece paddle in my back.

I actually found on the board that I want to ride in the ocean, which is a 105 liter 7.2 downwind board that's very surf focused. Like I have a 8.6 for riding my 110 tiny foils and paddling it up, but I never use it because I always want to ride my 7.2. I'll always go down to this board. And so what I found is turning and being aggressive on that board, I like the paddle in my hand versus having the hands free because

Daniel Paronetto (1:07:07)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:07:32)
I could be more aggressive, I'm turning harder and sharper because I'm used to that paddle. But as you get down in board size pair wings, so say you're on a 70 liter, a 60 liter, 80 liter, kind of one that you can't paddle, it's still nice sometimes to have that paddle in hand. And I've seen a couple people like Walker did in the Gorge on his like little 40 liter with the paddle on it just to rip turns harder. But I feel like it becomes less

Daniel Paronetto (1:07:46)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Mm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:08:02)
necessary because you're not whipping around this bigger board like we are downwind supping. So it really depends on what kind of downwinding you do dictates the size of board and that dictates whether or not you want to paddle. So when I'm in the open ocean I want the assurance of being able to paddle up if the wind dies because sometimes the best conditions are when the wind totally shuts off it goes glassy but there's still bumps and so like that's when you really want to be out there because that's like

Daniel Paronetto (1:08:27)
You have ups. Yep.

Patrick Rebstock (1:08:31)
light offshore, double overhead, clean surf, you're like, yeah! But on a parawing, that's super scary, because that means you can't fall and you can't get up again. It turns into a prone run. And most parawingers are not at the skill of prone runs.

Daniel Paronetto (1:08:42)
Mmm.

Yeah. And

you have to ride at like 60%. Right. You're not ripping. You're just, you just want to make it. Yeah.

Patrick Rebstock (1:08:52)
Yeah, and

so back to the board choices, I like that bigger board because I can turn as hard as I can and I know I'm gonna fall all over the place because it's easy to get back up. Whether it's a paddle or a pair of wing, I'm gonna surf as hard as I can knowing I'm gonna fall and then be able to get back up. So as you do different kinds of runs, say if I'm doing upwind, downwinders,

Daniel Paronetto (1:08:59)
Mm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:09:19)
I would maybe size down a little bit on my board because I'm closer to shore where it doesn't matter if I need to go in and I'm not bringing my paddle anyways when I'm doing an upwind downwind or in its straight on shore I'm just going out. And so, you know, sometimes that means you have to go through the surf and maybe you want a smaller board to be able to paddle through surf so you can duck dive like.

Daniel Paronetto (1:09:42)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:09:43)
Fairwaying's pretty sweet for being able to have your paddle still stowed. You don't have to have the paddle as a secondary

Daniel Paronetto (1:09:47)
Yeah, it's awesome.

I was just, I'm curious to understand, like now that you have. Experience with, ⁓ these augmented runs with the power wing and you've been riding the ozone pocket rocket. What, what are the characteristics that you feel make a good power wing for helping you with the downwinders? Like when I think about aspect ratio or, ⁓ store ability, like what are the things that you would put at the top of the list for a pair of wing to have for,

Patrick Rebstock (1:10:10)
you

Daniel Paronetto (1:10:19)
helping you with downwind runs.

Patrick Rebstock (1:10:21)
man, I'm so happy with the Ozone Pogger Rocket. yeah, so for me, like we've talked about before, I take my time snowing. So like, I don't need this like super quick in and out like I'm on a wave at Ka'a, because like I'm not in the surf. I'm riding these really long dry-out waves. So for me, I want, and I come from a sailing background of being a kite surfer, so I really appreciate something that like sheets well and can...

Daniel Paronetto (1:10:24)
It's a good one, isn't it?

Mmm.

Mm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:10:49)
you

can like sheet it out and then just edge over and just lean over and just rock it upwind and having something that's just like really performant. So even though say I am doing a lot of just like, you know, tacking out and then downwind with it, I don't think I would be using, ⁓ in my case where I am, the like low aspect one like Greg made because due to my conditions of being five miles

Daniel Paronetto (1:11:12)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:11:18)
to the side of the shore, like I want the big board because there's no exit at my run. But if I was in the gorge, maybe it'd be different, but I doubt it because I'd rather take the extra two seconds to ⁓ stow it properly and then have something that I can redeploy rip up wind. Like there's so many spots where I've been doing wing ⁓ assisted, know, pack downs and.

Daniel Paronetto (1:11:27)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:11:46)
doing that last few years up there when I'm up in the gorge, that I don't think I would ever trade the upwind performance and the flyability and just the funness of ripping. If you're going upwind, that's usually a grind, you might as well make it as fun as you can and have something that is fun to fly. And so for a pair wing, I think I want something that is...

Daniel Paronetto (1:11:58)
Mmm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:12:15)
a lot of depower in terms of being able to ride into high wind ranges where you don't have to switch sizes. There's nothing like being out there and the conditions are just getting better and better and then you have to get off the water. You want to be able to just keep riding. Or if you did a down winder and you go all the way downwind and then your run is to get back to the end and it just cranks up, you need to be able to get home. So I think a ⁓ ton of top end.

Daniel Paronetto (1:12:16)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:12:44)
is really important and so that's what I found the pocket rocket really does well is like you can cheat way out and just go higher and higher and higher into the wind. If you get like out of control you just slow down and pinch harder into the wind and so I feel like that ⁓ high end is really important. ⁓ Low end is important to get up but if you're riding a downwind sized foil like I usually ride the

Daniel Paronetto (1:12:53)
Mm-hmm.

Make it happen. Yeah

Patrick Rebstock (1:13:13)
Yeah, I usually ride the Lift 130 Florence, which is like an average size downwind foil. I'm usually not going down to the 110 or like really tiny foils. And so I don't need as much of like a super grunty only focused on that down, you know, the lower part of the range. I want, you know, a broad range, but I want to be able to handle that upper range and then rip up wind. I did spend a week

Daniel Paronetto (1:13:16)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:13:42)
in Oregon, we did one big run line augmentation run where we went around, we tacked way out to sea to clear a headland actually. So we had a big point that stepped way out and there's a whole bunch of rock islands out there, they call them sea stacks, and we needed to clear them. So we went way out and then we did the whole run and then the coast way drops away around the thing. It so fun.

Daniel Paronetto (1:13:52)
Mm-hmm.

awesome.

Patrick Rebstock (1:14:08)
Up there the winds a little bit more predictable so my two buddies tried smaller boards and did that but we were very exposed way out to sea. But it super fun but that was our only day of like real 35 mile an hour wind and so the rest of the week and it was awesome but the rest of the week we were on the lake at Flores Lake and so it was lighter wind I was messing around and just kind of actually learning how to fly the fairwing and actually

Daniel Paronetto (1:14:10)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:14:35)
do little tricks like little walk through dog tacks and all that

Daniel Paronetto (1:14:36)
Mmm. Yep.

Patrick Rebstock (1:14:39)
kind of stuff. And that was really fun too. So like I think a pair of wing is really important to be versatile and be able to do all that kind of stuff as well because I've done a ton of downwinding with the pair of wing but I hardly ever use it other than going upwind because I like use it to get out there and I put it away. And it was fun this last week to spend a week just riding it on this lake and kind of getting the grips with the super low end. How do you get it to like

Daniel Paronetto (1:14:54)
Mm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:15:04)
back stall and turn when it's like in no wind. Like you can ride, but like how do you turn? Kind of thing. And like I think having a pair of wing that's very versatile is nice. Cause then you can go out and do that. And then you can also downwind with it. You can also upwind downwind with it. It kind of, you know, it's just like a kite. It's like make a really nice one. Yeah, make a really nice

Daniel Paronetto (1:15:05)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

It's a kite man coming from a kite background. It's

like, it was so intuitive to grab it. Once you grab it, it was literally like 30 seconds. Like, man, this is awesome. It's a little kite in your hand. ⁓ and it feels very skaty. Cause I mean the way I ride, I ride it with a five eight. So it's very skaty in the Bay with those bumps that you explained that are very predictable, very stackable short period. I'm like, this is the most rippable thing I could possibly ride. ⁓ but where do you think it's going? Like.

Patrick Rebstock (1:15:51)
Yeah.

Daniel Paronetto (1:15:55)
If we look at the future and where the parrowing is ⁓ growing, enabling us to do different things, how do you see it grow and how do you see it helping people progress in their foiling experience?

Patrick Rebstock (1:16:10)
Yeah, so I think for people that ⁓ already foil, I think it's an awesome tool to get into downwinding. ⁓ You can do these runs that weren't, you know, accessible via the shuttle or you don't need buddies, you can go all by yourself. And so it's so easy and approachable to get into downwinding with it if you already have put in the work with the other sports. So I think it'll grow a ton.

for people that ⁓ have been looking at the paddle and being like, ooh, that's too hard or ooh, my wind's too side on shore for my location. I really wanna go downwind but I can't get down the coast, like, cause I have to paddle way out or there's no headland out there that lets me go down the coast or it's not side shore. So I think the potential for all of these different locations where downwind supping wasn't great, it has the potential to make them great. So that's the.

Daniel Paronetto (1:16:46)
Mmm. ⁓

Yeah.

Patrick Rebstock (1:17:08)
hence the run line augmentation, you can take so many locations that weren't good in terms of their geography and make them good. And so I think it'll open up a lot of wingers, a lot of people who didn't stand up paddle, like I didn't stand up paddle, I was super hesitant to pick up a paddle. As a surfer, I was just like, no, that's like the opposite I wanna do. And now I've completely changed. I think the paddle is...

Daniel Paronetto (1:17:16)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:17:34)
the most pinnacle thing in the ocean, because it's the only way that you really get into the real big ocean where you're just like, you're in the sea, and it's like yo ho, stuff's going, and you feel really confident in your craft. So even if you stop, you're like, okay, I'm on the thing that should be in these conditions. It's like being on a sailboat versus a motorboat where you're like, whoa, this is not safe out here. So I feel totally different about a paddle now, but a lot of people,

Daniel Paronetto (1:17:40)
Yeah.

Mmm. Yep.

Yeah.

Patrick Rebstock (1:18:01)
look at a paddle and think that's the kookiest thing ever. And so if they're not able to swallow their pride and try that, you know, get on the spare wing thing, because it's funky too. you ⁓ know, it's just a tool to get yourself out into this world of surfing off the coast. So whether you're coming at it from prone foiling and you've like done little, you know, I guess what you should call them, run errors or whatever.

Daniel Paronetto (1:18:26)
Mmm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:18:28)
or you come in at it from winging or you know your kiter you know I think the pair wings gonna be it's already super cool so it's not gonna be it's sweet like you can go out and get into the sport of downwind like you couldn't before so I still think that the paddle is super cool and the most versatile for being able to go when it's not windy so you're not relying on the wind and coming from kiting and always being in the surf

Daniel Paronetto (1:18:51)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:18:57)
and needing the wind to be filled into the surf, if the back's off a little bit and it's just right offshore, you're like, I can't ride. And it's the same thing with pairwinding, you're like, ⁓ I can't do it. ⁓ So that's the biggest thing is like you do need wind, so you need usually higher wind speeds than you would with the paddle. But those places that are cranking, it opens it up. Like I can't wait to just.

Daniel Paronetto (1:19:03)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Patrick Rebstock (1:19:23)
go with all my buddies on, you know, essentially what I was doing in 2018 in the prone board in Hood River, but now we get to go do it and I get to go to the top. And then I don't have to, I don't stop at the kiddie pool, we can do the whole

Daniel Paronetto (1:19:29)
Yep.

and just lop it. Yeah.

Patrick Rebstock (1:19:37)
So what do you think, like in terms of boards, if you are not in the open ocean like we've been talking about, this only applies when you're scared, you know, and it's sketchy out there. But when you're in a place like Hood River, you don't care because there's river on both sides, yeah, maybe it's a mile paddle across it, but there's no sharks, there's no nothing. If you need to wait 20 minutes for a gust to come, you can. And so what is gonna be the best? Like I've heard from a lot of people that went really small.

Daniel Paronetto (1:19:44)
Mm-mm.

Mmm. Yeah.

Patrick Rebstock (1:20:06)
and yeah, they can get up, but it's just like maybe the advantage isn't as big as you think. And so they've been finding thinner boards that are still like higher volume. So like 70 liters, 65, know, 80 liters and a little bit longer, but thinner. So it's still kind of a little bit longer because it gives you that range, but it's thinner. So it really gives you that feel of that prone bird. Like what have you found?

Daniel Paronetto (1:20:12)
Nah.

Mmm.

Yeah, I've gone away from like narrow boards. Are you saying thin in terms of thickness or the narrowness? Yeah. Yeah. Thin is...

Patrick Rebstock (1:20:39)
thin from the deck to the foil. So think about my SUP is

105, it's like six inches. And so they're like, the real advantage that we're gaining is thinness. And this is my buddies who are up in hood now, they're like, yeah, we can get those same feels, but just thinner.

Daniel Paronetto (1:20:55)
Oh dude, was the one

thing that I wanted with my board was as thin as possible. So it's just over four inches and 65 liters. there's plenty, like I think 20 liters under your weight, dude, it's plenty of volume to get you up. There's no issue there. Like I don't spend 20 minutes trying to get up. But what I did was I made it a little bit wider. So it's 20 wide.

It's not supposed to gain speed through the board. It's. dude, it's thin. And that's what I wanted with it. wanted thin because you do want the swell to kind of roll over it. If you're going crosswind, you don't want that awkwardness of, know, the pair wings taking you one way. And if the board is going that way, it's tracking it. You're to fall. it has to kind of be a little bit more forgiving and I'm absolutely loving this

Patrick Rebstock (1:21:27)
You can fit volume in there and get it thinner the wider you go.

I'm excited. There's so much gear that's like, you know, like arrived in the last week that ⁓ I'm so excited to try and it's all boards. Yeah, like foils are awesome, but like I know the foils I have, they work really well. Like new math, I'm really excited to get a new mass that's just like way stiffer. So that's going to be really exciting thing for Hood. But yeah, I'm really excited to try these smaller boards because pretty much everything we talked about is

Daniel Paronetto (1:21:57)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Patrick Rebstock (1:22:18)
a little bit irrelevant. Yeah, it's irrelevant when you go to Hood because it's just like, it's a closed water, you're free for all on safety. You just still bring your PFD and high visibility and communication, but you don't need to worry about riding that bigger board for being in the open ocean because you're just going along a channel. And that's super fun. for some people, pair winging might only be in the gorge and then they can simulate that.

Daniel Paronetto (1:22:18)
It's going to go out the window and.

Yeah.

Patrick Rebstock (1:22:46)
at their spot by doing the upwind downrides. Kind like you in the bay, like you're in closed waters there and you don't go in the ocean as much doing your longer runs.

Daniel Paronetto (1:22:55)
No,

look, we have a coastline here that I do, but then I use it, my downwinder board when I do it, even with the parrowing, like you were explaining, our Bay is enormous. It's a big Bay. So you can't even see the other side of the Bay kind of thing. So it's big. ⁓ but I, I normally don't do upwind legs that are more than like four tacks and give me a K or something upwind. just do laps and I just, you know, go wherever the bumps are good and just lap that.

Patrick Rebstock (1:23:22)
And

yeah, because we live, I live at the bottom of a run, so it's really nice for the pair of wing to go out because the bumps are usually kind of the best at the end of the fetch and you got to get that crème de la crème and then you're not putting yourself at risk by being so far out at sea. ⁓ So when you've described where you are has headlands and stuff and so it has reverb and kind of like challenges. So you find that you're

Daniel Paronetto (1:23:29)
Mmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Perfect.

Patrick Rebstock (1:23:52)
Bay runs are just like super fun and you ride your surfy foil and you're just like finding the bumpiest spot and just riding that.

Daniel Paronetto (1:23:56)
Yeah, I'm on a...

Yeah, I'm on an 850 or a 980, the S series from code. Um, so if it's a slower day, it's a nine five, nine six, depending on the size. Um, so not that high aspect at all. But then when I go down to Torquay, which is our coast, that's when I need the R series. That's around 13 aspect ratio. And I think that's perfect for the ocean.

Patrick Rebstock (1:24:04)
What's the aspect ratio of that?

Yeah, like that's another thing for the pair wing is it lets you cherry pick. so, and like if you're having just as much fun in a spot, maybe you don't get in the same flow state you do going, you know, point A to point B, you, yeah, it's just different, but it allows you to say, ⁓ avoid, you know, big rocky backwashy sections that are not as good. We're lucky here where the whole thing's good, but ⁓ in Oregon there was like,

Daniel Paronetto (1:24:29)
Yeah, dude, could write anything,

It's a different vibe, yeah. Yeah, it's a different vibe.

Mmm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:24:53)
parts where you're like, I don't wanna be near that. That's like just challenging and not like, you know, doing surf. Like where you're like, I get to do turns for a section and then I survive this section and then I do turns again. And it's like with the Parawing, when you're chair picking, you can kind of just surf as hard as you want the whole time and really focus on being like, I'm gonna turn so hard that my legs are gonna give out and then I'll know, you know, I'll reset and go back to win. The one thing is your legs are a little tighter.

Daniel Paronetto (1:24:58)
Mmm.

Mmm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:25:23)
for turning when you've gone upwind. So that's something to think about is like, if you're just going downwind, you're probably a little fresher for doing your maximal, know, hardest turns than if you just went upwind and then you go to go

Daniel Paronetto (1:25:26)
Yep.

Mm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:25:37)
Yeah, there's a spot where my in-laws live in Rowena, which is about 15 minutes east of Hood River, and there's a spot that's down from it called Dugs on the opposite side of the river. So I can just leave from the house and downwind there, and usually with this up, I'll go all the way into the next town. So you actually do a full 90 degree turn and the swells bend around and stuff. But I imagine that's probably not the best for the pair of wing because the wind changes where you can paddle up with this up.

Daniel Paronetto (1:25:44)
Hmm.

Wow.

Mm.

Patrick Rebstock (1:26:07)
But it's gonna be the awesome thing for doing upwind downwinders, because I'll be able leave from the house, hit dugs, which is similar to like the Hatchery Swell City Zone in terms of it's a full on magnet, but it's traditionally not somewhere that's easy to shuttle, because there's not as many exit points. Like the exit point is kind of right at the good spot, it's not beyond the good spot. And so I think...

Daniel Paronetto (1:26:14)
Awesome.

Mm.

Yep.

Patrick Rebstock (1:26:33)
when there's spots like that, I think I'm gonna take the pair of wing and do the upwind downwinders and then, you know, when I go to the other spots. And also some of the pullouts are sketchy and like there's, you know, it's kind of dangerous crossing the highway and stuff and so that's an advantage for going upwind is you can kind of avoid the parking issues and the, you know, kind of sketchy highway crossings.

Daniel Paronetto (1:26:33)
That's perfect.

Mmm.

Man, so many options. ⁓ I really appreciate, you coming on sharing your experience. You have a ton of experience with, ⁓ with foiling, but just being a water person and having you interested in the power wing. I think for me is also kind of validation that the power wing is something that's here to stay, that will help or make, you know, whatever you do on foil more fun. So thanks for coming on,

Patrick Rebstock (1:27:20)
Yeah, totally. mean, who knows what they're going to invent next. It seems like every year they come up with a new sport for us to do and we get to be a beginner again, which is the best part because you get to like every day is a steep learning curve of getting a new achievement. love learning how to wing, learning how to downwind stuff, learning how to pair wing. It's just these new ways to explore the ocean and they keep getting better. like, I hope it's here to stay, there's, you know, who knows what's next.

Daniel Paronetto (1:27:23)
Ugh.

Yeah.

Who knows, man. Thanks for coming on

Patrick Rebstock (1:27:52)
Alright. Bye.

Daniel Paronetto (1:27:52)
you soon, bro.

025_Patrick Rebstock: Exploring the World of Downwinding with the Parawing

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