Speaker 2 (00:00)
Today we have the designer of 777 Parawings, Aliaj Valic.
Speaker 1 (00:05)
I was born and raised in quite an aviation family. We compete in a World Cup circuit for 10 years. So we were like team pilots, I think three world records. And we saw the BRM come out and just clicked to me. The main for me revolutionary thing is the position of bar. You have direction control and you have pitch control. So you have all control in one hand.
Speaker 2 (00:29)
90 % of the brands out there. have three points of attachments on the bar and you only have two.
Speaker 1 (00:34)
I
thought it will disturb me and I remove it from the first days. We need to understand that single skins operate at a much higher angle of attack. Double skins are much more efficient. The main problem is still the take.
Speaker 2 (00:48)
And now you've launched a third model into the market the udw
Speaker 1 (00:52)
I want to have it really short lines, less air expect ratio, more compact wing. I want to pack it
Speaker 2 (00:59)
Is there an opportunity to make a hybrid pair of wing? Half double skin, half single skin?
Speaker 1 (01:06)
β We are already playing with it quite long and we are quite close to launch it and I think this will be game changer.
Daniel Paronetto (01:26)
Welcome to the LabRat Foiler the podcast. My name is Dan and today we have the designer of Triple 777 parawings, Aliaj Valic I hope I got that right. β welcome to the podcast, man.
Aljaz (01:38)
Yeah, you can.
Hello, nice to meet you. Thanks for inviting me.
Daniel Paronetto (01:44)
Absolutely. Um, we've been trying to line this up for a little while. A couple of times we had false starts, but I'm super stoked to have you here. Triple777 has been in the pair of winging industry pretty early since, um, you know, last year when we had the first launches. Um, I want to understand about the different pair of wings that you have in your lineup, a little bit about who are they for? You have double skins, you have single skins.
But before we get into all that, β let's understand a little bit about you and your background in sports. So tell us a little bit how you got involved in sports and paragliding and why did you decide to start a paragliding company?
Aljaz (02:28)
Yeah, I was born and raised in quite, let's say aviation family. My father was a skydiving instructor and sailplane pilot. So I was quite like little kid into aviation and many other sports like sailing also. yeah, like little kids, I start with aero modeling with my brother. So we were...
designing aeromodels and flying with radio control and then later, like 15 years old, we started flying sailplanes. And we continued sailplaning until 18, but we felt quite limited there in Aero Club, so we switched to that time the paragliding really started to pick up and was really freedom and so like 18 years old we started paragliding.
And yeah, we start competing really fast in competition circuit already after one year of flying paragliders because we just switched the sport. was all about flying. So switching for sail planes flying to β paragliders was quite easy. Just the
The article was different but all the rest, the theory of flying was the same. So we started to compete really fast with my brother and already achieving quite soon good results in national championships. And later we compete in a World Cup circuit for 10 years. So we were like...
team pilots and we were all the time reaching highest places, so many wins in World Cup and World Championships. We also achieved, I think, three world records in paragliding, in cross-country flights. So I think in 2007 in South Africa we made 430 km inline flight, so straight distance flight, so this was the world record at that time.
Daniel Paronetto (04:17)
Hmm.
Amazing.
Aljaz (04:37)
and many other records, but now they are all already broken. It's already a long time ago. But anyway, in paragliding, we also get into designing. β And anyway, we were all the time technically, I was studying for an optical engineer, wanna be pilot, but then the things went more to designing way. And so,
Daniel Paronetto (04:44)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (05:06)
Also, I worked like six or seven years in a ultra light plane company, like students. So I learned also there a lot about materials designing processes. And so we were all the time in this living, this designing and flying, but also with water sports to switch to our topic. We start quite early.
Daniel Paronetto (05:12)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Aljaz (05:34)
like little kids we start with this optimist class and we have also sailing little sailing boat with father so we sail already lily like little kids on so we were all the time into wind driven sports. We also start to play really soon with kite design before the inflatable kites came out so this was around 99.
we start to design ourselves the kite. We cut the tips of the paraglider, we sew it together, make the bar system, and we cut one fun surfboard, little. And actually, we went in the water that time, we thought something is not really matching, but nowadays this thing will go, you know. So we were already there in, I think it was 98 or 99 with this kite before.
Daniel Paronetto (06:01)
Mm-hmm.
Amazing.
Aljaz (06:29)
Inflatable tubes came out and then we start kite surfing with the first these Wipi ka and Takoon kites in 2001 I think but all the time the water sport, know was Kobe the professionalism was the the flying and competitions and working as test pilots like until Last year when we also switched to the Parawings, but we really in
Daniel Paronetto (06:39)
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (06:59)
I think with the Triple777 we established in 2012. I think in 2019 we started to play and we also launched the kites. We played with specific kites, really small size kites. with the kites we were really interested in
Daniel Paronetto (07:05)
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (07:28)
in kite surfing on the waves. So we really a lot with the surfboard riding the kites on the all the breaks we have here around in Adriatic. And we were really designed to develop a hammer kite, really nimble, small, not high expect high performance, but really compact size, really able to drift well to be super light. And we were really close to launch on the market because we play like one
Daniel Paronetto (07:32)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (07:58)
almost one year, quite focused on this development of this water kite. But then it came out the wing foiling. And then we said this because we really want to bring a super nimble kite, really small that you can ride on 10 meter or eight meter line. So that was our idea. So have really like kite like Gokart so you can really follow the move of your surfboard.
Daniel Paronetto (08:07)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (08:24)
But then the wing foiling came out and we said, yeah, this is really completely matching and I think we will fail in this. So we stopped. We were just maybe in one mounds. We said we will launch, but then we stopped it and we start to wing foiling. Before we also kite foiled a lot. So all these kite design was mentioned to be kite foiling on the waves, you know. So not for the normal boards, but more. This was kites like one.
Daniel Paronetto (08:37)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (08:53)
meter and half till eight meter size so really small compact kites which really have good traction and good steering but then wind foiling came foiling i start β quite soon with kite and i still do it's really i still like the feeling of kite foiling it's really this high performance feeling and you can really go in six knots so this is really like flying to me still
Daniel Paronetto (08:58)
Nice.
When did you start foiling?
Hmm.
Aljaz (09:22)
So this is pure, pure, but not only with high performance kites, also with more compact, like more free light style with strapless little board. It's really amazing still. And still, I think still these kites are still missing on this market, if you ask me. The really compact, rummer kites or maybe some hybrids, I think they still have one missing point in the market. They are still not available. I think one company
Daniel Paronetto (09:30)
Yeah, I love that.
Aljaz (09:52)
doing it little one I forget now the name but all the rest is mostly on more high performance high aspect kites so maybe still place in the market for this section of the kites
Daniel Paronetto (10:06)
So your foiling progression went from kite foiling to wing foiling and after wing foiling you progressed on to the parawing or was there anything else in between there?
Aljaz (10:09)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah,
between was we were anyway all the time in this. We don't have super good condition Adriatic, but still we have wind wind driven swells. So in a good conditions we can have quite big waves, but we don't have classic swells. So we were never really proning. We were surfing in holidays and this just paddling and these things also. But we have quite limited conditions. So but we start last
Daniel Paronetto (10:29)
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (10:46)
two years before the parawinging in last year, in August I start parawinging. So between I did one year really extensively paddle foiling downwinders with a SUP foiler. So I did this a lot.
Daniel Paronetto (10:53)
Yeah.
How hard was
it to learn that?
Aljaz (11:10)
β I think you know. It's not easy but I think I was quite fast because I think I have good understanding of foiling. I was really a lot of downwind foil already with the wing foil. We were doing here quite like 10 kilometer downwinders with the wing foils already.
So we were used to pump and we just want to get rid of this, you know, of the wing all the time in your sight vision. You cannot follow the wave, always limited. So then the paddle was next step for sure. We did it a lot of these deflate. So we did like, let's say upwind with the wing for 10 kilometers, deflate in the middle of the sea, run downwind, pump, and again upwind. So all day like this. So we're really into it because for me foiling is really like flying.
Daniel Paronetto (12:02)
Mmm.
Aljaz (12:03)
So follow the wave is for me, it's like really linear with cross country fly with a paragliding, corselle plane, the same feeling, the same quite similar tactics and just let's say more dynamic than flying sometimes. And then after this β SUP foiling downwinders, we were all the time thinking and I also start to play with my old this
guides I mentioned before.
So that time we bring again four years old or three years old, these little kites, and we were thinking and playing how we can stow this device, you know. This was last, all last year, I mean, before the BRM come out, we were all the time speaking with brother and with my down-winded friends, how we can.
Daniel Paronetto (12:47)
Hmm.
Aljaz (12:58)
how we can get this solution and I bring all these little kites again and think and then we saw the BRM come out and it just clicked to me because for me the main invention in para wing what was missing is the bar how the BRM positioned the bar and then this bar position it was really
Daniel Paronetto (13:04)
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (13:27)
revolutionary for me, for my personal, like designer point. Because we were playing with different, we were close to this position, but never really tried. And then when we saw this, then was all matched. Because anyway, we have already little these kites we play a few years ago. And I just take one old kite, I position the bar, make the new bridle and first day I was riding in end of August.
Daniel Paronetto (13:29)
Mm-hmm.
Amazing.
Aljaz (13:57)
So the main for me revolutionary thing like I mentioned before is the position of the bar alignment to place it cord wise so you can control the pitch and you can steer and all this you can achieve with one handle you know because with double handle you can do this but then it's not practical on water use and I think this bar really works like a dream now. So this is the main trigger which
Daniel Paronetto (14:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Aljaz (14:27)
missed in all the story many years.
Daniel Paronetto (14:31)
It's interesting. Yeah, you said that because you were you following what Sam Reynolds was doing with the pocket wing and the double handle as well or yeah.
Aljaz (14:40)
Yeah, yeah,
sure. We follow all these things because anyway, we were doing here every day. I know we don't have ocean, but we have sea, we have wind, we have waves. And we were really a lot on the water and playing and just dreaming what to do, how to do to get rid of this stowing device and just free fly the waves. So then it just click, you know. And then was quite easy after that. I mean, easy.
A lot of work, but β
Daniel Paronetto (15:07)
And
yeah, I imagine, you, did you feel, β what, did you feel about designing a parawing? it more work than you originally anticipated to get everything working and tuned properly?
Aljaz (15:21)
But actually we have really good experience with the kite. We never launched because we play maybe one year really extensively, almost full time. We stop paragliding and we just focus almost one year just pure on this, develop this new revolutionary kites which we never launched then. But we learn really a lot about the angles because for sure it's some specific β and some special needs which you need to be
design differently than paragliders that it works on the water on the special demands you have there. But we get quite all through these points with the kite designing. So para wing was slightly touched, but actually I start para winging with my, this double skin old kites actually. So I just changed the lines, the new bar system.
And I make the drainage for the water and it just works straight away. So that's why we also launched the double skin that time, first time out, because we, anyway, we didn't have time to develop the single skin. So we just decided, I arrived at quite maybe two, three, four months before launch and we get through all the main solutions for the double skin, how to drain the water. We have a really good solution, which works.
I think really great and still nobody have it. We make special bar with these transmissions, which for me it works fine, but for the general public, which was in a learning process of the para winging, it was too complex. Then we on the PT model, we replace these two basic more bar system without sliding pulleys, which then people start to understand easier and start to ride the kites.
But as we see now when BRM launched double skin also quite similar problems with double skins. And I was already aware this at beginning, but I thought the people will, let's say, progress faster than I expect. So for sure, the single skins are a way to go into the sport. That's no doubt. So.
Daniel Paronetto (17:46)
Yeah. I remember when I, when I first saw your double skin, and the pulley system and hearing that people, I think because we, we were all still learning how to fly parawings. β it does add a little bit more complexity, the double skin, you need to pilot it a little bit more precisely. β but now you have single skins as well. And what's the hardest thing from.
Aljaz (17:49)
Okay.
Daniel Paronetto (18:14)
you know, designing a double skin versus designing a single skin. What do those parawings present in terms of challenges when you're designing them?
Aljaz (18:24)
Yeah, actually we need to understand that single skins operate at much higher angle of attack to have the forum. The double skins, they are inflated with a stagnation, after stagnation point with a ram air pressure. So this stagnation pressure and then they get the forum and they get blown into the forum. We design it with the ribs inside and then cells get inflated. So those wings
can really fly at lower angles of attack. That means they can go really, let's say they can have more pitch variations and then can be really neutralized the lift. They can be almost shit out to almost zero lift, really small angle. But still you need some lift always in the parasol, parasol or parafoil device to have the tension on the lines. When you lose the tension,
the para wing or paraglider lose the geometry. So always you have some traction. You cannot cheat it out like with the wing to have zero or also negative lift. With para wing you always need to have some pressure to keep the shape. So the main difference is like I mentioned is higher angle of attack on the
on the single skins. also how the skin shapes are designed are different, their folds are different. So there are many different things, but also in our paragliding career, we designed many so-called single skin paragliders. So there again, we have really deep
Daniel Paronetto (20:15)
A couple notes, yep.
Aljaz (20:19)
background in single-skin paragliders also, which is same physics like now single-skin para wings on the water. So it's all our database from 10-20 years of designing the paragliders.
But the main plus, let's say, what are the main pluses of one or another? Single skin, it have really good, how to call it, static lift, let's say. You can really go almost to free falling canopy, only drag, pure drag, you know, and still really operates well. It's like spinnaker on the sailboat, if some people can understand. You can go from this, like really draggy mode, which...
just go wind 90 direction to the sail, the angle of the wind, and then you can go to some, let's say, I don't know, 10 degree of angle to the airfoil. But you cannot go lower because it starts to push down from the airflow from above. So it have really good this per size, it really pulls well. This we already know from paragliding and anyway from the aerodynamic theory.
Daniel Paronetto (21:06)
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (21:29)
So they have really good coefficient of lift, but they don't have good glide ratio. Glide ratio is, it's a number, it's a ratio between drag and the lift, you know. So it means with other words, with paragliding or flying, we can say the glide ratio is how much.
The one device will glide, so no power, will glide from one meter in a distance, in horizontal distance, you know, when you descend. This we call it high glide angle, or finesse. And this is double skins, they are here much better. They have better performance because they are really airfoil shape right, and they are much more efficient, like you see in a race with the kite foils.
where you can, they all use inflated rammer kites because they can, you can really, first you can really ride big surfaces and you can develop a lot of power but you can get rid of this power, you know, because you have this angle variation which brings you the coefficient or lift how it works with different angles and speeds. So with the double skins, you can go with other words more into the wind.
Daniel Paronetto (22:19)
Yep.
Aljaz (22:48)
So because of this glide angle, so you can really go with the really low angles β with the parent wind. So it means you can go really upwind. But you need bigger surface because you don't have this static pool, how I call it, like you have it on single skin. So the main problem, as we all know, in para wings is still the takeoff.
Daniel Paronetto (22:49)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Aljaz (23:13)
how to have the compact with other words, if it's compact, it's steerable, it's easy to maintain in the air. So this point, the single skin parawings much better. So in the faze we now, the main thing is to get on the foil and then when you aren't on the foil, the foil it's already really efficient. So you don't need super efficient also device which pulls you can.
you can fly the foil also upwind with almost the plastic bag in the hand because it's so efficient. So the main thing is to take off to get on the foil. So in this case, single skills, the single skin para wings perform better, yeah, for sure. And this is music, this is music and will always be like this, you know, just pure take off and the simplicity of take off.
Daniel Paronetto (23:46)
Yeah.
Yep.
Aljaz (24:08)
with single skins will be always much easier than with double skin parawings.
Daniel Paronetto (24:16)
Is there,
is there, β an opportunity to make, and this is me just spit balling ideas right now. Is there an opportunity to make a hybrid parawing half double skin, half single skin.
Aljaz (24:31)
Yeah, and β we are already playing with it quite long and we are quite close to launch it and I think this will be game changer. What I feel now when I test right and play with it, in para wing it will be game changer for sure. And we are really close now maybe to finish in a future.
Daniel Paronetto (24:59)
Nice. I'm curious to see how that comes out.
Aljaz (25:00)
But this
it works good and it fulfills all the minuses and pluses of each design. we also before we also experiment a lot with the hybrid kites. So we have also this database quite well known. So we are just now transforming our knowledge from one product to another. So we just. β
putting pieces together.
Daniel Paronetto (25:31)
Amazing.
One
thing, Al, that I really love about your pair of wings is the bar system, the line attachments to the bar and how you don't have the B lines attached to the bar, like probably 90 % of the brands out there. They have three points of attachments on the bar and you only have to, how hard is it to remove those B lines attachments from the bar to create a cleaner bar?
Aljaz (26:03)
Yeah, this I already fought my attention already beginning so already my first para wings Didn't have this middle line, which I felt it will disturb me too much and So I remove it and then when we launch PT anyway, we have this brittle system with the pulley which anyway needs to sliding and I also
found nice because of this like we call it in the like we had in the PT was this like servo we call it servo mechanism so the B line is slides and this sliding it's it's β moving the balance point of the force on your bar so when you stall it the B slides more in front so your bar is always you don't take so much this moment of the wing you know you take the pulling force for sure
Daniel Paronetto (26:59)
Mmm.
Aljaz (27:01)
but the moment of the wing it's all the time more neutral. So when you want to stall it, it's like servo mechanism. You stall it, but it's not this high pressure which want to reply again. It's more like less pressure like driving a servo wheel, you know. So when you do like gypes and this with this system, it's really nice. But it's for sure the feedback from the canopy back, it's already more tuned or dumped.
Daniel Paronetto (27:17)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (27:28)
So if you are not like experienced rider, it makes you, let's say more negative than positive things. But when you know how to ride it, it's really nice because you can, you just have all the time, just the propulsion, know, the force of β traction, but you don't have these steering forces so big. So when you are do gypes and these, can really do like parachutals one handed, but really light pressure, back pressure, you know. So it's all the time.
Daniel Paronetto (27:53)
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (27:55)
This is the sliding system which gives the plasys but let's go back to this middle line. Yeah, I thought it will disturb me and I remove it from the first days. So we also, I also ride from the first days with the harness loop because I wanna ride it power and I wanna really rip up wind hard. it means I need big force and then β I can hold it but
Daniel Paronetto (28:12)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (28:25)
why should hold it because for sure with the trapeze when you are connected to the harness β you can really control the pitch more sensitively and you can really ride fast and hard because you don't have this so much because also when you are connected to the harness your hooking point is lower balanced more down so you have more less this pitch nose down moment when the gust comes you know because if you hold with the arm which is higher you have more
Daniel Paronetto (28:45)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (28:54)
negative moment I call it like moment nose down with the board you know because your arm is higher so it pulls it pulls you down so when with the harness this is much more to the board balance point and it lets this moment which gives you nose down but in gusts so for sure with the harness you can really go harder and more precise and safer on the end
Daniel Paronetto (29:21)
Interesting. And the, the PT skin is the first single skin that you launched in the market. What are the best characteristics of that PT skin? What does it do really well? So people can start understanding what models do, what things in your lineup.
Aljaz (29:39)
Yeah, the PT first was launched double skin. This was for sure meant to be for performance riding and long upwind rides. And then in a, let's say in a easy long fast swell, you have time to stall this double skin. And then you can really go long, long glides without re relaunch again the wing. And then we anyway, we
Already from the we know we will design the single skins also. So then we start to develop the PT skin, how we call it. And the main focus which we already experienced from the double skin was that the overall weight of the canopy matters really a lot. So that we already figure out with the PT because
Daniel Paronetto (30:30)
Yes.
Aljaz (30:35)
Let's say when you are your wing is really into upwind mode. So it means β it's on the side quite low and in front of you, which is the mode to go upwind hard that time, the gravity really works onto your para wing and it you need to be compensated with the lift up to compensate the weight. So all the time you need to instead of riding your wing like
really horizontal you have to all the time ride it like this to compensate the weight so the heavier is your para wing more you have compensate this so it means more you have to lean your wing like upwards so you are losing this propulsion but also you have all the time this annoying effect on your hands which you need to compensate compensate all the time and we already figure out this with the pt
Daniel Paronetto (31:17)
Yes.
Aljaz (31:30)
And with the PT, that time we launched it and we were afraid to have really too high cost of production. in the last phase of development, we go to heavier material, which was, let's say, for sure not the good point of the PT. Basically we are playing a lot before with the really super light materials, but they are extremely expensive. the...
price of the product that time will be unreachable for the new born sport, let's say. So we decided to go to normal cloth like other use it in like 32 gram cloth, which was cheaper. And but it was mistake to not stay in the same cloth using now with the PT skin, but already the PT was tested and till the final phases was run on the super light cloth.
But then overall cost give it to high price. So we go to more heavy cloth and for sure the flying characteristic were worse then. But β this is the main reason why I explain you know to compensate the weight you need to bring the from this position to this and this is all the time pushing bar. So the lighter is product less you have this compensating your the weight of the and single skins anyway they are lighter.
And β from the beginning of the PT skin I designed fully the lightest material reachable. And I really take focus on each rib to delete unnecessary weight. We use super light plastic, super thin. We use one extra reinforcement. don't know if you check the skin how it's made. I also use in the nose of the airfoil in front when you really rip high angles.
Daniel Paronetto (33:16)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (33:26)
I have one vertical baton which prevents deformation of the nose radius. So you can really put a lot of force on the like ripping up wind, but you still don't get deformation on the nose because this vertical plastic is preventing this. it's all all the there are many reinforces. Then we also have this jibus arch we call it in paragliding. So from you have a line brittle attachment.
Daniel Paronetto (33:40)
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (33:54)
And then higher on this ventral rib, you have one synchral circular shaped plastic reinforcement, which transforms the connection points from the line from one point, which disturbs the load evenly to the bigger surface of the rib without deformation. Because if you pull on the fabric, like this rib, if you just pull in for one point, if you don't have this arch,
Daniel Paronetto (34:02)
Mm-hmm.
Interesting.
Aljaz (34:20)
This load will go just where the fibers are, so usually the fibers are like this in the ribs. So this here will give really high distributional force, but all this side and this side will be less. So with this arc you spread the load more evenly to bigger surface of the rib from the bridle point. So from the contact point you would disturb the load to the highest surface on the top. So all these reinforcements make sense and it gives
Daniel Paronetto (34:33)
Mmm.
Amazing.
Aljaz (34:48)
Difference when you fly the wing you have really compact wing you can really pump it from low end which I want So all is think and it have reason why is there? Then all the ribs we have perforations on the PT skin So also when the wing fell into the water when you are pulling out this perforation it works So the water can more easy run through it. So when you pull it's not like water anchor, you know, it's more easy to
to go out because the water goes there between the reefs. But also they are lighter and also when you move the wind, when you are flying the wing, when you go from, let's say, moving direction, it can slide the air through so it's more maneuverable the wing. It's not so traction, so you have a light wing in your hands. all it's, yeah. But for sure it's more work, it's more expensive to produce.
Daniel Paronetto (35:33)
Mmm.
Aljaz (35:44)
but we want to give the best to the people. So we really try to focus to build really best performing product we can do with our knowledge we have. And I think we'd like to.
Daniel Paronetto (35:56)
Yeah. And look,
it's been, it's been really well accepted in the market. I, I talked to a lot of what I consider, you know, one of the best riders, a couple of the best riders out there and they've all, you know, written your parawings and they all have really good things to say. β which is awesome. β that's what you want as a designer to get good feedback. β and now you've launched a third model into the market, the UDW. So it looks like a little bit more lower aspect.
Parawing single skin. How does that compare to the PT skin? What are the differences between those two so people can understand which one they can get?
Aljaz (36:36)
Okay, so when we finalize the PT skin, I start to play with the new concept. So which will work even at higher angles of attack, let's call it so I want to achieve a better this static ground when I pump. This was the first idea, the goal, the second goal was I want to have it really short lines.
So I can write technical swells, I can write really breaks, like short breaks, when your time to stall is really limited. So the idea was I want a brinkly compact wing, which don't have too much wingspan. So when you are in the waves, sometimes you can have really like in breaks, you have really condensed waves. So it's not open wave. This oscillation is really condensed. So you have really up and down peaks.
Daniel Paronetto (37:09)
Nice.
Aljaz (37:30)
And for sure when you have high respect ratio, this doesn't help you when you want to start because you are touching the water all the time. So I want to have to bring maximum surface into lowest β spin wise, you know, the, the, yeah. So this, and I increase the supporting points. So for sure it has little more drag, but
I want with the more support points, so it means with more brittle, especially in the first part of the profile, I want to build really direct and really high load shape, which doesn't deform when I pull it, you know. So this was idea. And then I specially designed also the airfoil to really work. So therefore it's really specially designed.
Daniel Paronetto (38:15)
Yep.
Aljaz (38:23)
that it works almost like slots on the airplanes, like extra wing in front. So the nose radius is designed to really work for high angles. So the nose is really like this. So it really work when the air come from high angles. So when you wanna start on this, it really nice split the flow. So the nose radius is specially designed, different shape. And also the airfoil is really thin.
Daniel Paronetto (38:29)
Mm-hmm.
Interesting.
Aljaz (38:52)
First to have this really slight, the wing really cuts through the air nice, but also to reduce overall weight of the ribs and material. So the airfoil is really thin. These ventral ribs are really small, so all is really less material, without the words, but we have more lines to have this support because like on the PT skin, I don't...
use if you check the PT scheme we use this extra ventra line no ventra line I forget how I call it now but we use one line on the B lines row to reduce the line number so on the A I have every rip I have lines on the B point which is one point behind I have every third β rip line and between
Daniel Paronetto (39:40)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Aljaz (39:49)
is one extra line, which I call it ventral line, and it works like diagonal. So from this cell where is the line B line, it goes diagonally up to the other rib, then transforms to another and goes again down to another cooking point. So this work like to split the loads, but reduce line numbers. In paragliding, we use these like diagonals, but here in single skin, you can tweak this with the line.
Daniel Paronetto (40:05)
Mm-hmm.
Nice.
Aljaz (40:15)
and it doesn't have a lot of the rack, but you reduce the total line numbers. So these views.
Daniel Paronetto (40:20)
That's huge. That's
such a, yeah, that's a, that's an amazing advantage. Does it, does it help keep the structure of the parawing and make it last a little bit longer?
Aljaz (40:24)
This is also
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it's actually to reduce the lines is idea. So you have one line up, but then you have one micro line which split the load from this leap to another leap, which is no line there. So you cheat this with this extra β spanwise line. But in the UDV, this is the new product, we have just built more lines.
Daniel Paronetto (40:33)
Okay.
Hmm.
Aljaz (40:56)
So we have really direct contact to the canopy. yeah, specially designed airfoil, less air expect ratio, more compact wing, β not inflatable tips because for the brakes, for the really technical swells, you don't have time. So we decrease performance for sure little, but we wanna have this response time. I wanna pack it fast, I wanna repack it.
Daniel Paronetto (41:01)
Mmm.
Aljaz (41:25)
99 % repeatably, and I don't want to for sure lose 10 seconds or five seconds for drain the water from the tips, which with the peat skin works fine, but for sure every detail it takes your time in a critical segment in the sea, know, so each product is positioned to the specifics you need. So if you want to go upwind long runs, you ride the
Daniel Paronetto (41:36)
Mm.
Aljaz (41:52)
the PT if you playing the bigger park with still have long upwind runs, you can go with PT skin. But if you have really difficult technical break or short swell or quite difficult swell, the focus is just to retract fast and restart fast. that's why we launched this model. And it really also the volume when you pack this wing is even smaller than β
Daniel Paronetto (42:16)
I love it.
Aljaz (42:22)
And the... Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (42:24)
And the PT skin is already so good.
Like it's so small compared to a lot of the parawings out there. I don't know what fabric you're using specifically, but two things that come to mind. One is obviously the thickness of the fabric, but also how it allows the air to go through the fabric. you just, it just disappears very much like, you know, the BRMs are the next one that I think that have a similar, β packability and all the other ones are still.
Aljaz (42:44)
Mm.
Daniel Paronetto (42:54)
very far from being packable like yours and the BRM.
Aljaz (42:59)
Yeah, it's all about compromises, but for sure the material is a game changer, that's for sure. But material are the cost, know. The higher you go, the price goes up. So we really squeeze the price and we are still positioned price-wise. I think we are positioned well, but for sure we are not running in high margins with the...
Daniel Paronetto (43:25)
Hmm.
Aljaz (43:25)
with
this product because we have the best material on the market, which means the most expensive. Also, the ribs are from the best, lightest, high, this hard coat material from the Porsche. So all material we use are the best, but it means they are the... Also the lines, if you go to the lines, we use the best lines like we use in competition paragliders.
Daniel Paronetto (43:40)
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (43:54)
So these are either lead lines from the base material is scalar and they are all spliced, you know, so you don't have these double line which all the time it's cooking. So it's all spliced with a needle. And but the main reason why we use this line is first is the handling. So we don't have the sharp edges. The second thing which is more important and the people will start to recognize it is the
Daniel Paronetto (44:02)
That's amazing.
Aljaz (44:23)
Stability of geometry. This is really important β thing which we already facing in paragliding industry for 20 years or more. The stability of line means that the line keeps the specific dimension, which is if the line moves for few millimeters, it already affects the flying characteristics. And the Kevlar lines are the only lines which are super stable in humid.
Daniel Paronetto (44:26)
Hmm.
Aljaz (44:53)
conditions. if you use Dyneema lines, Dyneema is nice material. It has better strength factors, so for the given diameter it stronger. But the problem is it absorbs the water and it changes geometry a lot. And that for sure you don't want in the para wing where you're flying one meter short, where two millimeter shrink or three, four millimeter shrink.
Daniel Paronetto (44:55)
Mm-hmm.
you're seeing.
Yeah.
Aljaz (45:21)
already changed the flying characteristic of the wing. That's why we use Keolar, which is super stable, but again, it's more difficult to produce because you need to manually splice each loop and put through with a needle and then stitch it. But the line you make is perfect. It will stay with dimension and wing will fly from first bay till the when you break it or it's really material ruined will fly
Daniel Paronetto (45:34)
Hmm.
You
Aljaz (45:51)
quite same. With Dyneema I have really doubt that it will do it because it changed to my geometry. So many which they use Dyneema for sure they will after time they will get problem. It's because geometry it's it really all in this because it's really sensitive. Parawings are small devices and few millimeter means a lot and usually the
Daniel Paronetto (46:06)
Yeah.
Aljaz (46:19)
Usually the back lines which are not stressed a lot, they have tendency to shrink. This quite like 5 % per length, you know, the shrink. So it can easily shrink one centimeter too and then it will not fly the same anymore. So that's why we use Kevlar. But we use really to be friendly when you stow it. We use much thicker diameters than actually they are
Daniel Paronetto (46:25)
Hmm
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (46:48)
struct structurally needed, you know, for the loads we fly. So those lines we use, are like 300 kilo lines, 200 kilo lines, they are really super strong. You don't need so strong, but you need it just to be safe, not safe, but user friendly, you know, when you slide the line, when you stow the glider. And also this, the new one, the, this UDV, the new model, we also put focus on this and we put even thicker lines on the A really to be
Daniel Paronetto (46:57)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Aljaz (47:18)
Gentle to your hands, you know, so you can really slide but not be cut or something so you can do many times in a If you like ride up, let's say like one break you can do many times just stow Ride wave like few one minute again relaunch so you do really repeatably this and then your hands get damaged for sure So we put thicker diameter of the a lines just for that reason
Daniel Paronetto (47:44)
I like that. I, um, my writing style is very much like that. I like to go to a performing spot, be it a wave spot or a performing, um, area here in the Bay and just do laps, you know, go up maybe 500 meters a kilometer and come down. And when I'm doing that originally, my focus was on a parawing that went up wind well, but now I feel like I get a lot more out of my session for a parawing that stows well and redeploys well.
Aljaz (47:54)
then.
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (48:13)
because I'm doing that 20 times, 30 times. So if I get a tangle and come down 10 times and have to sort out, know, you know, that's two minutes. So you just lose a lot of time. And I think the pair of wings now, they all go up wind. You're losing a few degrees, you know, and I love the concepts of the UTW for that because that's where I'm enjoying to ride.
Aljaz (48:23)
It's not a
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Actually, that was my basic idea. I like to mention now because I recognize the more you are technical with the para wing bigger sizes anyway, you can write and with half meter bigger size, you can get this angle of higher performance lower size wing, you know, so actually if you check also the I also I try to build all the models to be size is matched, you know, so let's say the PT
5.6 matches the PT skin 5.4 and it matches the PT UDV, this new model, the PT6. So, you know, also I try to be, when I have sizes, they are all through the model gamma range, they are arranged for the same wind range. So, yeah. And also, yeah, yeah, yeah. So,
Daniel Paronetto (49:11)
Mm-hmm.
that's very, very helpful. It's cool because people can choose different models for different things depending on what they're going to use it for. like that.
Aljaz (49:35)
I'll try this to calculate and try on the water and see that really matches well. So this is also my focus. Another thing which I want to mention with this new model is also we try to even minimize more the bar. So the bar on the new one is also smaller overall and it has one or two centimeters more this front A over.
Daniel Paronetto (49:50)
Yes.
Aljaz (50:03)
And I think we were also the first which we launched this out, the first position, the A, let's say the first hand position, where is the A point. We were the first brand which we designed this bar with this overlapping in front of A. So this we already start with the PTA. This was in January or February we launched. So we filled the need.
Daniel Paronetto (50:28)
Do you know how
long the bar is for the UDW? Is it around like 11 inches, 12 inches?
Aljaz (50:33)
I from
my head the small one the 3 meter 3.2 have 30 32 centimeter Yeah
Daniel Paronetto (50:42)
32 centimeters,
I don't know what that is in inches, but we can convert.
Aljaz (50:46)
Yeah, but it's I think it's in the in the line with the it's not so extreme like BRM, but it's quite close. And then the the the four meter is 35. And the 5.6 is around 38 something like this. So they are like
Daniel Paronetto (50:55)
Yeah, 12 points.
Yep. And that's also
like those, those little details for me makes such a difference because you don't need the same bar size on a three that you do on a five. So reducing the bar is it just makes the stowing so much better. You don't have that bar sticking out less bar for you to get that little tangle β on. So all those things are super helpful.
Aljaz (51:30)
But also my idea already from beginning is I want the same feel from all the sizes, you know. That's why all the sizes are really linearly zoomed. So it means, like you mentioned, we are one of not many companies which every size have bar dimension. So it gives you same handling or as it can be the same.
Daniel Paronetto (51:38)
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (51:57)
So you have same feeling with three, same then with the four, you don't any difference in flying characteristics because also the bar is linearly zoomed to the size. This, and also we clean the harness. We already from the first day from the PT, we also give serial the harness loop with our bar systems and we now really polish the bar. Also the new version of the PT skin.
they have the new harness loop which have no hooking points. We really try to make all smooth and light. So now we have a new harness loop which first is more clean. So in the middle where is the back position of the bar, it doesn't have this extra velcro something which always tends to cut the line. So it's really directly mount and another solution we use.
more thick tube so it also you can hook with just with the bar you know you don't need to you don't need to hold the harness loop when you hook it because you can do just with the torsion and it's fixed to the bar so when you move the bar the harness loop it works so you can hook it and unhook it without holding the line so it's like with the windsurf style but it's still light and without any unnecessary hooking points which can tend to then
Daniel Paronetto (53:13)
Nice.
Yeah.
Aljaz (53:26)
catch the lines when you store something. So the bar for me should be really clean and smooth and light. That's the priority. I hate heavy things, you know. So the bar should be super light with high quality carbon and that's it. And simple as possible.
Daniel Paronetto (53:42)
Mm-hmm.
Yep, I like that. And I saw β on your Instagram you testing something really big. There was a 7.3 meter para wing you were flying in. How many knots were you were flying that in?
Aljaz (53:58)
Actually, I hate to give condition because it's really difficult to judge and I'm running last half year I'm riding quite small equipment. So I ride my weight board and foil around thousand. So this is my daily quiver to go in normal condition. don't, I'm 87 kilo or 80 kilo.
Daniel Paronetto (54:21)
I'll see you later.
Aljaz (54:26)
and I use 85 liter board, 5.4 and 1000 foils. So I think I can go in if it's, let's say if it's not wavy surface, I think I can launch in 10 knots with this or 12 knots, but 12 knots for sure it's easy to launch. But mostly why we launched this wing, my idea firstly was to give support to the bigger guys, you know.
Daniel Paronetto (54:42)
Wow.
Aljaz (54:55)
which wanna write in 50 knots and this is missing. And I have experienced before with double skinned 8 meter, I play a lot. It was really demanding to fly, it was promising, but too technical to write. But with now with single skinned 7.3 meter, it's really pleasure because this thing stay in lightest breeze in the air even when it's because it's much lighter.
and it can operate higher angles, doesn't stall, know, with double skin. If you go below certain angle, you have tendency to stall because you have no airflow circulation. But single skins, can, you can flow really high angles. So this is not problem. And now I'm riding like one week with this 7.3. I'm super happy. I can stall it super easy. So I can still ride my small technical wave I have here in my region. So I think we will launch it really soon, the 7.
Daniel Paronetto (55:27)
Hmm. Yeah.
Aljaz (55:53)
And it can really for cruising, it's really nice. But also, let's say we do many times like open, down winders. And my main problem nowadays is when I ride the foil, you know, you can ride it, ride it, ride it. And then you come to the region with low wind conditions and you are far, far away from the shore. And, you know, if you fail, if you fail,
Daniel Paronetto (56:03)
Mm-hmm.
You
Yeah.
Aljaz (56:23)
you are fucked, are there, know, with a little board. And also this was my idea to have this safety device, like seven meter, it can still packed. I don't have it here, otherwise I can show it. It really packs small and you can just have it for this extra boost or safety device, you know, you can still go because usually when I go, let's say open, open downwinders, usually I have three pair of wings with me. I start, let's say with the free otherwise
Daniel Paronetto (56:25)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (56:52)
I don't even go in a really far from the shore. And then when I switched to the four meter, if I fell for sure, is the first warning, you know, then when I start to get problems with the four meter, when I switched to five, then usually I said, no, maybe now it's time to approach the shore, you know, because if it even drops more, it's no jolly in the pocket anymore. But now with the seven, I still have maybe three more knots.
Daniel Paronetto (57:08)
Ho
Yeah.
Aljaz (57:21)
to go down because many times we have nice swell even with 30 knots of the wind if you go out of the shore you know. The less wind you have the more you have to go out of the shore to have running system well. that's the but the main plus is this because I ride many times now with my friend he is doing with the SUP foiling and he is not afraid of this no but I'm always you know in the open sea.
Daniel Paronetto (57:27)
Nice. Yeah. Yeah.
Aljaz (57:48)
If something goes
Daniel Paronetto (57:49)
Yeah
Aljaz (57:50)
wrong, I'm in there.
Daniel Paronetto (57:52)
Yeah, look, we've all been there, man. I mean, I'm curious to understand how that 7.3 turns and maneuvers because, you know, big pair of wings are hard to fly, especially in light wind, know, jiving and things. You really need to know how to jive properly and position the parawing properly.
Aljaz (58:08)
Yeah,
it can do, I can do honeycomb jive with seven meter, it's still possible. So it's, you can down loop it, but it's so light, you can just before the jive, you just little shit upwind, you put it quite in a parachutal mode, and then you do jive and you pull it with the hand and it's no problem. I'm amazed how it works for the size. So for sure.
Daniel Paronetto (58:25)
Hmm.
Aljaz (58:36)
In the future, will ride these sizes in 10, 12 knot conditions. But this I'm speaking with normal board. With downwind board, you can go two knots down even, not two. When it's light wind, if you say in a light wind condition, 10 knots or 8 knots, it's big difference. This is 20 % of the wind less. It's not the same like when you say 36 or 38 knots.
Daniel Paronetto (58:58)
Mmm.
Aljaz (59:05)
it's not linear with the wind speed, so but I think 10 knots will be able to run with the big boards.
Daniel Paronetto (59:13)
And what about the line length? That's the other thing that β I always am curious.
Aljaz (59:15)
I can, I can,
yeah, this I play a lot and I try to approach the limits always, but in all paragliding or paragliding design, there is certain limit which you cannot go below. If you go below this line length, your angles of the line splitting are too extreme and your canopy start to deform, you know. So there is always link between the arch you made
Daniel Paronetto (59:22)
Mm.
Hmm.
Aljaz (59:44)
and the hooking focus point of where is the bar is. So it's all about the many factors and you play on the end with centimeters to have the shortest possible but still clean canopy you know.
Daniel Paronetto (59:58)
The one thing that I've been talking about with a few of my friends and, β you know, ideas that we have is to, to ask the brands and it's nice to have a designer here with us. if how hard it is for us to, for example, when we're buying a parawing, we choose the size and then the next step is we choose the line length. So maybe people that want a little bit more power.
can choose longer lines and people who want more direct, agile, easier stows can choose a smaller line. Is that something that is hard to introduce in the production of these parawings?
Aljaz (1:00:35)
Actually, lines...
They have some connection with this, let's say the power it builds, but actually is not only by the lines. For sure, if you have longer lines, you have little this kite, let's say kite pendulum effect, you know, when when you take off, if you have a higher canopy, then you can still bring little down and up. And it already gives you a few newtons more to take off, which makes sense.
If you fly or not, it's on the limit many times, know, so with longer lines, you can build little disguise effect. Yeah. But mostly it's about the, the, the airfoil shape, how your, your angles. So it's not only to look only the line lens, how it will pull. It's not like this, but it for sure longer lines, it give you this pendulum little. Yeah. So, but it's not only this. So it's many factors.
Daniel Paronetto (1:01:36)
And would
it be, would it, would it work if all the lines still connect to the same attachment and then you have a, like a straight point to the bar that is a little bit farther away to get that pendulum and then, you know, the, shape of the canopies is still the same.
Aljaz (1:01:47)
Yeah.
I was
also thinking to bring extension to the market. So you have one kite and then when the wind drop, you have maybe just integrated into the bar that you can release the canopy extra 20 centimeters higher and you have this extra boost. But it's all over engineered and it's getting bulky and maybe you can do it on the ground.
Daniel Paronetto (1:01:58)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Aljaz (1:02:19)
But to be this all integrated, you lose this lightness, this simplicity feeling. I don't want to this mess up to bring maybe one person better take off or something. And then you store it. But for.
Daniel Paronetto (1:02:30)
Yeah.
The, the reason I think about it is because the, the wind range in the power wings is still a little bit narrow and I'm sure it's going to get better with, you know, better, um, know, um, innovations and everything that we're thinking about. But if I, for example, only have one parawing, a four meter and it's around 16, 18 knots on that day, I might choose to put an extension on.
to get a little bit more power. that might help you not, you if you only have one to get a little bit more out of it in those days that you need a little bit more power.
Aljaz (1:03:02)
For it
will work. You will sacrifice the handling because it will be twitchy more like chewing gum. Because you have a single point, you have this single line which will go up, let's say half a meter and then you have this. We already tried, tested a little plate, for sure the boundary layer of the water is really important with the wind speed.
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:09)
Mmm.
Jelly. Like less responsive.
Aljaz (1:03:31)
If you understand so you have surface of the water. if you are flying this Parawings are really low devices and you fly it in a really boundary layer of the wind from the water surface. So you already feel it this feeling when you take off with the foil. One is a parent wind when you start to beat, but it's not only a parent with it. It's also the boundary layer. So when you take off, you get one, let's say half meter or
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:32)
Yep.
Hmm.
Aljaz (1:03:59)
70 80 centimeter higher above the water surface and you already are higher where the wind speed is more Realistically not in this boundary layer way change speed to the zero at water surface So all these are little things but you feel it, you know So with half meter higher lines the your canopy is higher above the water the wind speed because of the friction is already bigger so It makes sense for sure. But yeah
It's for sure it works. That's no doubt it will work. But if it's practical, this is another you can do just kite loop and it's easy to extension in a let's say in my bar will super busy because you need just to extension point because we don't have middle and geometry say the same. So for us will be really easy to bring extension. It will be with our bodies, maybe one mini job to do this because I just bring
Daniel Paronetto (1:04:42)
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (1:04:54)
bigger loops and my bar connection is you see how they are done they are just run through the hole and loop it over so you just unloop it you bring extension between and your lines are half a meter longer so this is two lines and you have higher so it's possible but yeah i think for most of the people already this modification is too technical
Daniel Paronetto (1:05:20)
I know we're getting ahead of ourselves, but we, you know, we've been in it since the beginning and now we're all thinking, how, what, what are the extra little bits that we can have to tweak what, you know, the pair of wings we have, the sizes that we have to compensate for a little bit of that wind range. But, β I, I, I also feel that there's a big opportunity for accessories and new accessories in the market. What do you feel is working well?
when you think about, for example, stashing equipment out there.
Aljaz (1:05:52)
Yeah, first, let's say the most important equipment in parawinging is the harness. I ride it with the harness from day one. I like this free-flying sensation, but if you want to ride all day and want to really rip up wind, highly powered, then you just use... I also do jibes sometimes with the harness hooked in. the harness is super important part of equipment if you want to ride like five hours or four hours daily.
like we do here sometimes. the harness, then we play a lot with the different stash bags, you know, we play a lot, we never launch it because honestly, honestly, we have one, we can launch it to the market, but still I think I don't feel need for a stash bag because I prefer to hold it in my hand in a small ball and even
I do last week or two weeks ago I did like 20 kilometer run downwind just in one shot I just launch, pack it, 20 kilometer, one hour and a half in quite weak moderate condition but with single traction you know just right away and in my hand and I didn't really feel need to put it somewhere maybe I look more cool because I put it somewhere but generally I personally maybe I'm wrong
That's my personal feeling. I don't need it to put it somewhere. But mostly I do, let's say two, three kilometer downwinders. And so there for sure you don't need to stow it somewhere. It's small ball in your hand. If you, if you learn to pack it well, you can really have it. Nothing in your hand. It's really like this. And then you can really upwind, rip upwind, pump next way upwind and you don't feel the drag. So.
I don't know, but for sure, yeah, the stash backs, we play with different, also one in front like kangaroo style. It works nice because you can use, the idea was that you can still use the harness to hook in and still you have this back here and we develop it, but we still don't launch it because I don't use it actually. I use just hands. I prefer simple.
Daniel Paronetto (1:07:56)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Do know where I really think the, stash belts are good? β in a wave scenario where you have to go through a shore break or something like that, having the parrowing in between the board and your, your stomach while you're paddling it, you know, you lose it. So those are the scenarios that I feel are good. And you know, Dimitri, β in Mauritius, he's developing some cool vests. I really like what he's doing. β and when I saw that I'm like, wow, that's really good. Cause sometimes if you have to paddle out and even duck dive to get out.
Aljaz (1:08:16)
Yeah. Yeah.
That's right. β
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:40)
then the powering starts to fall away, fall apart.
Aljaz (1:08:41)
Yeah, it can
also go around your arm and then it's big problem if you get in swell and the break in the with can be not nice experience.
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:52)
What was the gnarliest experience you had out there with the power wing? Anything that was kind of dangerous that you went through?
Aljaz (1:08:59)
But actually I'm quite used to the lines through all these years with the line sports, so I'm pretty fast with untangling things already from paragliding. Maybe the worst was I was riding, we were making one movie with double skin and I fell in one break point and the board went through.
Daniel Paronetto (1:09:05)
Yeah.
Aljaz (1:09:23)
through the wing actually. So the mass was around and I didn't have much time because another set was coming. So I was thinking just break away from the board and the para wing and just wait in a safe distance that it goes. But anyway, was not a nasty break. It was just a two meter wave or something like this. Not really big, but you never know, you know. All this surface when you hit the water, it's big force. So it's not.
Daniel Paronetto (1:09:23)
Mmm.
Aljaz (1:09:49)
good to be played. I prefer just to leave it and take time to think and then go back after the break because if you're right in break condition, para wing can be dangerous if you don't approach right or if you don't have scenario in your hand what to do. And for sure knife it helps if you are fast with it.
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:13)
Yeah. And that's the other thing you have to practice those safety procedures. If you have a kite knife in your harness and you never take it out in a session, you, when it comes to the time comes to use it, you're not going to. No, it's too, yeah. It has to be a quick decision and you're deciding to get rid of your equipment. So it's a big decision to make.
Aljaz (1:10:15)
Yeah.
Yeah, don't have time. Yeah. Instinctively. Yeah. Yeah.
You need to program yourself in front, otherwise you will not react in in situation. That's for sure.
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:37)
Hmm. And what improvements, Al, do you think, you know, we can expect from Parowings in the future? What are, what are the things that you look at Parowings, you're like, I really want to make this better.
Aljaz (1:10:39)
Thank
Aljaz (1:10:49)
Yeah, for sure we can still play with the concepts. One concept for sure which is missing is some link between double skins and single skins which are already trying and testing and I think will bring this sweet point from both worlds like some hybrid line and I think it's really promising, works well. This then for sure is this
take off ability, which I mentioned, we really need to build compact wing, which can be pumpable. will never, you will, we can never cheat physics, you know, but we can really approach with little details, with nice force distribution, with really right bridle supports. We can really approach with this hard wing feeling. It will never be the same because you always need to be in a pressure with the lines, you know, when lines lost the pressure.
The canopy lose the shape, doesn't hold so. But with fine tuning, you can approach to this with the skin tension of the sail. It's special airfoil, how is the trailing catch, how the brakes works. It's many things. Little types, little steps, know. Revolution is already done. That's reality. Now we will do hard works, little steps, trying, testing, computer again, redesign.
Daniel Paronetto (1:12:13)
Thank
Aljaz (1:12:13)
So now is real work, revolution is over.
Daniel Paronetto (1:12:17)
Yeah, it's there. think, yeah, we definitely,
it is a new industry. There's no doubt about it. Everybody that touches a parawing that knows how to foil, they get really hooked on it pretty quickly. β
Aljaz (1:12:28)
Yeah, I'm
completely hooked. I didn't even touch wing one year now. I went kind foiling still because I love the sensation and it's really similar to Para Wings. But wing foil, it's really nice device. It's nice for free ride in a flat. I still like it because you can do all these turns with just on the foil and just dynamic and the wing you just use it like, you know, you can just cut through the wind. You cannot do this with a Para Wing.
Daniel Paronetto (1:12:56)
Mmm.
Aljaz (1:12:59)
But I'm so stoked with the Parawings that I do only this, only this. And for sure there will be more division in Parawings. For sure we will have, yeah, I think.
Daniel Paronetto (1:13:11)
Yeah, let's talk about that. So you were
mentioning that you see a few things coming. So racing is one of them you said?
Aljaz (1:13:18)
I think racing will be really interesting and it can go really good. I play already with prototypes that are still quite technical to use. But when it's the right condition and the right wind, it goes really not the same like kite foil, but really can approach to the performance of the kite foiling. So maybe can be Olympic discipline in the future also.
But I think the most interesting will be some crossover, know, some like para wing races in some crossover format. So you have like upwind leg, then you have a downwind. This will be really the core, the heart of this sport, I think. Some discipline like this. you need the, yeah. And also nice to watch. You can have maybe, let's say one, β
Daniel Paronetto (1:13:48)
Love that.
That'd be really, really cool to watch a circuit and you, yeah.
Aljaz (1:14:18)
If you have specific conditions, have one peninsula, here you have waves, so you have one leg upwind in a flat, then you hit the wave spot, you downwind without, and then you hit like race mark again, so you do like some triangles in some spots like this. I have many opportunities for this sport, but for sure it will go to, let's say, for race division, do some free ride.
to what we have this downwind and really pure downwind. So we will have for sure in the future, I think we'll have like at least three, four models in ParaWings. Each company will give out.
Daniel Paronetto (1:14:56)
Yeah.
I would include in their waves because it's, it's, it is a specific discipline on its own. People that want to focus on waves. And when I speak waves, I think there's people who might just stow the power wing and ride the, wave. And that will be interesting because the gear that people can use on a wave on a parawing is very different from other sports, but also powered up wave riding. And what you see.
Aljaz (1:15:03)
Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:15:24)
People do now, I don't know if you've seen clips of Mallow, example, clearing sections and doing those things and boosting and doing tricks and me, that's going to come.
Aljaz (1:15:36)
I think like I mentioned beginning of this conversation the revolution is in a bar, you know and also I see I see also the The the way of this bar to go into the kite design I did in a past for the wave riding also the tube kites like it's plum Let's say like the f1 design this people smiling, but I think this bar it can go with
Daniel Paronetto (1:15:43)
Mmm.
Aljaz (1:16:04)
even into the wave kites on the short lines with the surfboards or whatever for sure is big for bigger but the the way you steer because with this bar you have power delivery and you have steering unhooked before we were never able when you kite before with the kite if i ride kite surfing and i want to unhooked with my bar to have this sensation from the pulling with my hand to ride the wave it was always fixed power you know
But with this bar, you have directional control and you have pitch control. So you have all control in one hand and that's the revolution in this. bar is really a revolution early to all segments. And I think in the future, it will also touch maybe the, the kites in a smaller lines. You can write the kites with this bar also. So I think we'll be some really crossover in code or all discipline in the future, I guess. That's my view.
Daniel Paronetto (1:16:32)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm, interesting.
yeah. And I've mentioned to a few people that I feel that para winging will bring people into kiting, which was the first kind of revolution. And then we went to winging and, people now being exposed to lines for the first time and getting rid of, you know, that fear of lines, all of a sudden, once they know how to parawing, they'll be like, β what if we put 50 meter lines on this? And you're like, well, that's a kite, my friend.
Aljaz (1:17:09)
Yeah. Yeah. β
Yeah,
I think maybe the first step will be maybe five, four, five, six meter height, which will be the, let's say the level between power wing and the kite. It will be, so you have the steer up little less durability like with the power wing, but you are closer with pulling to the kites. So I think that the field is really open with this bar solution now. So let's see what the time will bring. It's all in the head.
Daniel Paronetto (1:17:33)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Do you feel that there's...
Sorry, go ahead.
Aljaz (1:17:56)
I said is only in a people imagination skill and ability you know it's no limits.
Daniel Paronetto (1:18:01)
Yeah.
Yeah. Do you feel there's much improvement to be had in in the materials? Like we saw in winging, for example, you know, Alula was something that revolutionized how wing canopy was, was, you know, created and, the, β the tension in the, in that canopy and everything. Do you feel that there's something that we can still find in parawings that we haven't explored?
Aljaz (1:18:24)
The good thing about Parawings is they are really small surfaces. with other words, if I use expensive material, the overall price will not drastically kick up. know, with Para gliders, we use like 50 square meters of material, you know. So if my price of material is double, then the price of Para glider is really jump to infinity. So with Parawings, I think we can use
quite expensive material and still to to reason the product final price can be reasonable. But mainly, okay, the weight of the material is important. The next thing is durability. It's really important because, but durability again is connected into the condition you use the, the para wing and how is designed. If your para wing is let's say not shaped well,
So the tensions are not good. So you have constant flattering. The flattering kills material, no, really, really fast. So if you have like brrrr all the time, this is really afterburner to kill the material. So if your tensions are really well, so the wing is compact, doesn't flatter, for sure it will live more than the wing which all the time is like brrrr doing. So this is one. And I think the special...
Daniel Paronetto (1:19:26)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Aljaz (1:19:51)
Maybe special material can be developed for the para wing with really important is the water repellency. know, how the water goes when it falls to the water. when the anyway, you notice this when you have nice para wing, a new para wing, it really drops water down fast. Then after maybe 20 hours or more already start to more tend to stick to the surface because the your coating.
Daniel Paronetto (1:20:00)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Aljaz (1:20:19)
Because you constantly, you you're packing, you're opening, also the load on the surface on para-wing is quite high because we write small surfaces. So the material, it's really, with this packing, you get abrasive to the material with your hands, with the water all. So you're coating this, it's de-integrating slowly, you know, so it's soaking water more and more. So you don't have this crispy feeling anymore. So.
Daniel Paronetto (1:20:35)
Hmm.
Aljaz (1:20:46)
I think we need to really focus to really develop good water repellency. This is the main challenge. And when the market will be interesting and big enough, the material producers will focus on this matter more. And I think here is quite, we can improve. But mostly is by designing. Like I mentioned before,
Daniel Paronetto (1:21:12)
Mm.
Aljaz (1:21:13)
Revolution is gone, it's only small details and playing and testing. So this is the future.
Daniel Paronetto (1:21:18)
I like
that. And if I, if I were to say, Hey, you should try the parawing. What are your views? What will you tell someone that is on the sidelines now? And they're like, ah, I want to give it a try, but I'm not quite sure. Why should they try the pair of wings?
Aljaz (1:21:36)
Yeah, it's many reasons why, but for sure is sensation, which is really close to kite, foiling for me. Then is this one hand power delivery control, which is super important and you can do on. I think in the future we can do really crazy tricks because of this bar control we have. So it's really many, many options. And also like I mentioned before, with bigger sizes.
this sensation of sliding over the water, just in column C and like kite feeling. So it's really, I think it's only sport which give you now in the water so many opportunities from really pure downwinding till race kite foiling feeling, you know. So I think it will open really big discipline, wide door. I think we'll have the wider range of all water devices we use now.
the power wing. So I also I'm really I'm really addicted to power winging and all my focus now is to develop all this what I see in my head. So I work full time on this now. So I think it have a nice future for sure. And it's not so hard like people see it. The most important is like with all water sports, you need to go well powered. So
Daniel Paronetto (1:22:37)
Yeah. And I feel like...
Mm.
Aljaz (1:23:06)
into the water. So when you feel it that you are powered on the ground, it's not enough. You should be even more powered because when you are on the sea, this force is 50 % less like you feel it on the ground because you start to move, you start to drift down and it's not enough. So the main mistake is people go under power into the water when they learning. So playing the play on the ground. What is also nice with Parawing
Daniel Paronetto (1:23:12)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (1:23:34)
You can really train on the ground, you know, you can give to your kid. You are not afraid. Will something happen like with the kite so he can build the skills already a lot just ground handling, you know, and when you are the water on the water, then is you know how to steer. Then it's just the foil, you know. So all the yeah, all the technical part of winning. Yeah, you can teach on the ground on the water is only join the foil with the power wing. That's it.
Daniel Paronetto (1:23:40)
Mmm.
I think that's crucial. Not many people do it.
Yeah. Yeah. You see people learning kites, kite surfing or kite foiling. They spend two days on land learning how to control a kite and then they go and they body drag for a day without the board and then they get a board. yeah, β highly encourage people to get out there and just, β do some land drills. It's, it's going to save you so many hours on land. In the water. Sorry.
Aljaz (1:24:11)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
For sure
I saw also the community from the kite. It will go into this sport because they are learning pretty fast the sail because many times I give to my friends and the guys who are from windsurfing or wing foiling can never touch kite foiling. They struggle with the steering. But if you give to the kite guy, just in a minute he knows what to do.
Daniel Paronetto (1:24:44)
Yep. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Aljaz (1:24:54)
But the main problem for the kite, let's say for twin tippers to go to the para winging is that they are not able to perform the jibes, know, then where the windsurfers are coming. But if you are in kite foiling, it's not a because anywhere you do jibes. So I think the easiest to enter this sport, they are kite foil guys. They can do it in one hour, I think, or less. Because they...
Daniel Paronetto (1:25:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I agree. The wingers might
have a little advantage with the balance on the board, but to build that balance doesn't take too long. It takes a few sessions and you're like, you get it. I agree. think kite control is more important.
Aljaz (1:25:25)
Yeah, yeah. yeah. So,
Daniel Paronetto (1:25:34)
just like you. I'm completely submerged in power winging and that's all I do. I mean, I, I will take the kite out and kite foil now that it's summer and we're going to get some sea breezes like 12 knots, 15 knots. And in those days, if I don't have a big parawing, I'll still take the kite out and have a lot of fun. But I really, β admire what you do, man. Like your products are up there with, you know, the biggest brands and you know, the,
Aljaz (1:25:46)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (1:25:59)
the people with the biggest budgets out there and you should be really proud of what you produced. β the, the stuff that I've seen and experienced with your, with your parawings is absolutely awesome. So I need to try this UDW now because that's the style of parrying that I like small compact short lines, lower aspect ratio. So well, let's have a chat. Maybe we can get one down for a, for a demo.
Aljaz (1:26:05)
Thanks.
Hmm
Yeah,
sure. Good. So,
Daniel Paronetto (1:26:27)
But
thanks for coming on now. Do you have anything else you want to share with us, man? Like this is your time and β anything else you want to add here, feel free to share.
Aljaz (1:26:39)
Yeah, I just wish the more people will approach the sport. And yeah, we are doing a triple seven kites and paragliders. are doing full time focus now on this. I'm like, β and also what I want to point, it's really important for the final touch of the product. We are small company, but I'm designer and I'm riding, I'm testing. So I do all one. So if you are not.
If you are designing and not really write it, it's really difficult to get all the little points. So sometimes it's not only how big is company, it's more important how is designing flow works inside. it's not all about the money, you know, it's more about the passion and ideas you have and the time you invest to these ideas. So that's it.
Daniel Paronetto (1:27:30)
Good job, man. β keep doing what you're doing, bro. I want to see more stuff coming out of, β triple seven and can't wait to test this UDW.
Aljaz (1:27:39)
Okay, nice to chat with you and all the best,
Daniel Paronetto (1:27:42)
Thanks, Al. We'll catch you soon,
Aljaz (1:27:43)
Bye.
Yeah, bye. Thank you.
