Speaker 2 (00:00)
Today we have the designer of the F1 frigate, Nicolas Calais.
Speaker 1 (00:04)
For me all the sports are very complementary. The wind, the waves, the water that will lead which sport I will do.
Speaker 2 (00:12)
What is harder in designing the para-wing? Is it the actual shape of the canopy or is it the bridling that is so intricate?
Speaker 1 (00:17)
For me you have two different ways of designing. This looks to have the best DNA of each sport. The right DNA of the kite surf, the right DNA of the wing.
Speaker 2 (00:28)
What were you guys trying to optimize on the frigate?
Speaker 1 (00:32)
key point for me for the design of the frigate β
Speaker 2 (00:35)
a bigger leading edge. What's that giving you in terms of performance?
Speaker 1 (00:39)
When you have a small leaning edge, it's very compact, but on the other side...
Speaker 2 (00:45)
What about the stash belt? materials for the power wings? What's the next wave of adoption now? Who is the rider who is impressing you the most? Poof.
Daniel Paronetto (01:06)
Welcome to the Lab Rat Foyler podcast. My name is Dan and today we have the designer of the F1 frigate, Nicolas Calou. Welcome to the show,
Nicolas (01:16)
Thank you, Dan. Thank you. And I'm very honored to be part of the show. Thank you very much for that.
Daniel Paronetto (01:22)
β so am I, man. we have, β so many good reviews on the frigate. Everybody is loving the product that you design, which is, must be a really good feeling as a designer to get that feedback. so we're going to get into, know, your design process, everything that you went through while designing the frigate. But before we get into that, I really love to touch on your past experience and how you got to this position of being.
the lead designer in such an important project like the Parrowing for such a big brand like F1. So β if you could just take us through a little bit of your history in sports and how did you get to F1?
Nicolas (01:59)
Yeah, it's a quite long story with F1. For me, it's quite interesting because I was born in Bordeaux and close to Atlanticos. And when I was young, I surfed, I bodyboarded a lot. And I tried to windsurf first. I tried to remember it was around 87, something like that, a very long time ago. Then after that, I switched from Bordeaux to the Mediterranean Sea when it was super windy.
Daniel Paronetto (02:19)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (02:27)
And I was windsurfed a lot when I was young, not competing a lot. didn't take in account competition in my head and it's not important. And what was very interesting is β I start to kitesurf. I tried to remember to figure out it was in 1996. And it was a long time ago. Yeah. I was one of the first. Raphael tried kitesurf.
Daniel Paronetto (02:50)
Wow, very early.
Nicolas (02:57)
Previously before me because I know Rafael from the windsurf career. We had some competition when I was young together. Then we met for the first time for windsurf, which is quite interesting. And after that, I tried the kitesurf and I I felt in love immediately with the kitesurf. Even if my first experience was, you have to remember 1906 was we had two line kites. We didn't know how it work. I spent one year to go upwind.
Daniel Paronetto (03:23)
Yeah, no.
Nicolas (03:27)
But my first experience, I tried a kite. I remember it was a concept or something like that. I just take it on the beach, crash on the beach. I had a very wide beach and slide for almost 200 meter long away and crash on the water. But I felt in love. Because of the power, I felt in love with it. Impressive power. was even if it was super light wind. Then I stopped windsurf, immediately go to kitesurf.
Daniel Paronetto (03:47)
Yeah, there you go. There's the structure power.
Yeah.
Nicolas (03:56)
which was one of the best experiences in my life. what was good is I was studying at a university and one of the most famous brands at this period was Wipika. And they were established in Montpellier where I lived. β because I was one of the first to try the kitesurf, they need some testing riders and step by step, I first was a test rider for them.
for the brand that was the number one at this period. It was amazing, it was a huge brand. Unfortunately, it doesn't exist anymore, but at the beginning, it was quite interesting. And I was testing rider. After that step by step, I managed all the test of the all the riders in the world to collect all the information, to give β clear information for the designers. And it was during my study, I studied a PhD.
Daniel Paronetto (04:28)
Hmm.
Nicolas (04:53)
then it was definitely not a PhD dedicated for kites, but it was a lot of mathematic models I used. It was to understand the behavior of your body when you learn a new task. And totally different, super scientist. Yeah, yeah, but finally all the mathematic models, I can apply it on the kites.
Daniel Paronetto (05:09)
Wow, very different.
Nicolas (05:16)
to find what is the best tuning for the designer between the feedback we had from the rider and how they can apply it on the computer. And step by step, I was teach to design kites with the former of the kite at WIPIKA and step by step.
Daniel Paronetto (05:20)
Mm-hmm.
Amazing.
Nicolas (05:39)
It was like that. And what is interesting with F1 is the first kite I bought, it was an F1. It was an ATK that was introduced in 1999. And when we discussed last winter with Rafael about that, I said, remember my first kite I bought was β an F1. during the last 30 years, we never worked together. We've been finally competitors.
Daniel Paronetto (05:46)
there you go.
Wow.
Nicolas (06:05)
Then after being a designer, I was a brand manager for for one guy company and I quit because at this step I was convinced that a lot of things we learn in kite we can apply in all different more different world. It could be insert, it could be I was working for Big Sports at this period. Big Sport is not living anymore.
Daniel Paronetto (06:25)
Mm-hmm.
big yep
Nicolas (06:32)
And we are the windsurf, we are the kite, we are surf. And all the time I feel that I'm a surfer, I'm a windsurfer, I'm a kite surfer, I'm a wing-foiler, a winger. I love all the water sports and all the knowledge I learned. Finally, I think that I could apply on different sports. And the philosophy of the company was not like that. Then I left and started my own company.
Daniel Paronetto (06:44)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (06:59)
And after that, I started my own company in 2008 and I was kitesurfing only at this period. I have one friend of mine, two friends, Chris Middleton and Laurent Ness who owned the first kite school in France. He started his kite school in 1904.
Daniel Paronetto (07:00)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (07:27)
It's a dinosaur story. A real dinosaur story. He called me, Nico, you need to try the hydrofoil. remember, I don't know if you remember the carafino. He said to me, you need to try. And like the kite, I spent one year to go upwind. There lot of work of shame. But like the kite, the first experience was quite hard, but I felt the potential. Then I started to hydrofoil in 2009.
Daniel Paronetto (07:28)
Wow.
It's but it's so early. It's so cool. Yeah
Not from my time.
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (07:57)
After two days I tried to trim the hydrofoil, trim the back wing, everything. Then I was very focused on hydrofoil for the last 20 years. Even if I still kitesurf, use a twin-team because for me all the sports are very complementary. When I go on the beach now, this is the wind, the wave, the water. How is the water that will lead to which sport I will do?
Daniel Paronetto (08:16)
for sure.
Nicolas (08:26)
Finally, it's totally different. This is what I call now, we are kind of watermen now on the water with all the tools we have and we need just to find the right tool for the day. And this is very interesting to do. Then I design kites, design hydrofoil, design boards, 20 boards, for my own company. And after that I go back to Zico.
Daniel Paronetto (08:39)
Mm-hmm.
What was the name of your company?
Nicolas (08:56)
ZEEKO,
it's a very small company, French company. But what was interesting with ZECO, I did exactly what I want, what I want β to motivate myself. And finally, with this company, I was working also to create an energy using a kite. I was working on the pick and place robot because we applied the same technology to make a twin tip boat with carbon piece on the robot, which is totally different.
Daniel Paronetto (09:01)
Zico. Yep.
Mmm.
Nicolas (09:25)
But this is what I like to do. It's when we have a knowledge, for sure we can apply it on different worlds. And I love that. And finally, and what is interesting with the wing is I tried to design some fall kites and finally I never succeed to do it. I failed all the time. And with the power wing, the knowledge I learned after years was well applied on the power wing. And it's sometimes...
Daniel Paronetto (09:43)
Mm-hmm.
Amazing.
Nicolas (09:55)
work
sometimes now and after that Rafael, it's not Rafael, it's his son Julian who called me last January because we live together in the same, close to the same time, I live at 20 kilometers from them but when we are on the beach it's like in Hawaii finally we are all together. I know Rafael, you know that I'm testing all the time and things on the water and I see him also on the beach.
Daniel Paronetto (10:05)
Julian.
Nicolas (10:24)
testing thing. What is fun is when we go on the beach, we say hello, we look in the eyes and when we cross like that together, we turn the head and to check what are you trying? And for the last 25 years, it was like that and it's quite fun to know and Julian called me because they want to be a part of the para-wing sports, but they didn't have the resource.
Daniel Paronetto (10:37)
Hahaha
Nicolas (10:54)
because all the designers were fully involved in all the projects and they didn't have the resources to go on that. This is why they called me and we discussed for one month about what they wanted to do. I previously worked also for different companies and I already started to test Parawing and Pocketwing since last September, one year ago, for another brand.
Daniel Paronetto (10:55)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (11:21)
And I know that they call me because they see me on the beach testing, making notes on bridle, on the water, I was testing, tuning. And it was not working at the beginning, to be honest. The first one I spent six months not to be sure that powering will be a real sport because it was complicated at the beginning. To trimming, have something that works, especially when you are from the kitesurf.
Daniel Paronetto (11:32)
I see.
Nicolas (11:48)
which is especially kite fall. was super involved in kite fall. It's super fast on the water. It's super efficient in light wind for jump, for everything. And when you want to introduce a new sports, if the level is very low in terms of performance, for me, it has no sense. Then we need to work hard to make it to have the first break of the big house of the para wing for me. we discussed...
Daniel Paronetto (11:54)
Mm-hmm.
I love
that idea of building when you are coming up with something that is new and the reference points are very little. You have a couple of brands with a couple of ideas and some products out there. Where do you start? where, do you, okay, this, this is the first design and what is harder in designing the pair when is it the shape, like the actual shape of the canopy making a high aspect, low aspect, whatever, or is it the bridling that is so intricate?
Nicolas (12:42)
It's finally a complete setup that is β important. First, you need to have what I could call the canopy. You need to have a canopy shape that is performant. But if the bridle is not β well set up, you can have the best shape. If the bridle is not correctly set up, it will not work.
Daniel Paronetto (12:56)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (13:04)
Then finally, it's always a balance between the 3D shape you give with the fabric and the trimming of the bridle. For example, for me, you have two different ways of designing. You have some people that will make a lot of prototype, something 20, 25, and test it only a few hours and make a new prototype, testing a few hours. β
From the beginning, I never worked like that, even for kite design. β I prefer to spend a lot of time, even one month, sometimes one month, two months, with one kite, try to tune the bridle because finally everything has to be taken in account. And if the DNA of the shape is not good, you feel that you can't optimize it, you need to make another prototype.
But with the bridle, can do a lot of things. It's quite impressive what you can do. For example, what I said for the frigate, we didn't make a lot of prototype, I mean in a 3D shape, but I test maybe 100 different bridle system on it. Then, something you just have to feel what is the limits in terms of...
Daniel Paronetto (14:11)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (14:21)
All the time β I feel like that. For me it's a complete tool. You have the power wing, have the bar, you have the harness, you have the board, you have the foil and all the time you need to understand what is the limitation of your ride. And at the very beginning step hydrofoil are well designed now. We know that it's very performant. Board is the same and power wing because it was, I talk about six months.
Daniel Paronetto (14:37)
Hmm.
Nicolas (14:49)
One year ago, the real limitation was the powering, clearly. Then we need to be focused on this part first. And first, you need to understand what is not the worst 3D shape. And after that, you make a prototype. You feel when you think about how to design, I spent a lot of time β checking videos when BRM was on the markets.
For me, my head, it was clear that it's a real sport. very close to... It could have all the best features of all the water sports we have on the market. Then it could be part of the right DNA of the kitesurf, the right DNA of the wing, the right DNA also of the windsurf, because finally the behavior of the bar is very similar to windsurf sailing. Then, the first time I looked at that, what was interesting is when I...
Daniel Paronetto (15:23)
Hmm.
I agree.
Nicolas (15:48)
tried for the first time the wing, I was not so same enthusiastic as it was for the first time I tried kitesurf, for the first time I tried a power wing, but I was wrong, definitely, because it's a real sport. But because I was with the DNA of a kite foiler, the first time I tried something that was very slow, we had a foiler that was a 2000 centimeter square when I was used with kite foil to ride a 500.
Daniel Paronetto (15:55)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
Nicolas (16:17)
Then for me, the sport was a kind of total sport compared to kite forging. Yeah, then I didn't feel that the first step, I was wrong. Then after that, step by step, I established that it was a real sport, but with the Parawing, it was exactly the same on kitesurf. This looks to have the best DNA of each sport. Sometimes you feel that you have the best DNA of each sport, but when you mix it, it doesn't work. Then on that,
Daniel Paronetto (16:18)
Yeah.
Big board. Yeah, I understand. I was kind of very similar to that.
Nicolas (16:47)
sports, looks, yeah, short bridles, which is something that is a limit of the kitesurf. Something, no pumps. It's quite interesting to have no pumps. Now, what I say that I lose time now to put my wetsuit and to assemble the foil to go in the water compared to kite compared to wing. We feel that it was the we spent too much time to prepare the wings or the kites.
Now this is the quickest thing you need to assemble to go on the water, which is totally the opposite of the other spot. And all these things look that the spot is very promising, for sure.
Daniel Paronetto (17:31)
Yeah, look, it's, I, I, I resonate with a lot of the things that you mentioned there, you know, when going into that transition from kiting to, to winging, the reason I got into winging was because it allowed me to surf. was better, a better surfing tool than the kite. So I went for it and you know, ultimately then it became the way to surf and then sup downwinding came along and I was like, wow, that's a better way to surf without the wing. But then the para wing came out and it's.
It allows you to do something that is reserved for very few people in this board with a very small board and a very small foil. If you're not Ridge Lenny in Hawaii, you know, doing a rock start and, you know, pumping out to, to see on a prone board, there's no other way for you to get access to that. β and that's why it made me fall in love with it. but I'm curious to know. when you started doing these prototypes, who were the writers that were involved in that?
Nicolas (18:03)
Exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
Daniel Paronetto (18:28)
testing phase? it mainly you or do you have a couple of key riders in the team that you bring along?
Nicolas (18:33)
Yeah, was for the smallest story. When Rafael and Julian called me, they said, we know we are not the first. Then we prefer to take time to take if we need to spend one year to introduce something on the market, we will spend one year. Then I had no pressure on that at the first step, which is very important to understand.
Daniel Paronetto (18:45)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (18:59)
We had no limit in terms of time, no limit in terms of investment because they felt that the sport started to grow. because they were not the first and they know how to be the first because they were one of the first skyboarding brands, one of the first other SUP sports, then they know that. And they know that they were not the first.
But finally, β what was interesting is we discussed, I checked all the things I saw on internet in January, February, and I had a first prototype. The target was to finally, the first target was to have the what's in F1 we call the sample zero. The first step to start the R &D. We need a first step and after that we start the R &D.
And β finally, the first prototype was very promising. It was β very surprising even for me. I felt that if I put this β parameter on the design, this parameter, this parameter, for one of the, what I say to Raphael now is, and Julian, be careful, it's never so fast as we did with the pre-get. I did it only in my career, two or three times in my career to develop a product.
so quickly because everything was well balanced. All the parameters to design a powering was well balanced at the first step. And how we did it, finally, it was not the provider that was involved at the very first step because we need to be, I said that we don't need to be fast, but finally, when we had the first prototype, we felt that
We are on a very good way, then now we need to push a lot. And to be so fast, we have Kaileni that is riding, that he was already riding the Plume and riding a Parawing, but he's based in Hawaii. Then we just make all the tests with Julian, the son of Raphael that is very involved in a downwind hydrofoil.
Vincent, who is one engineer, and me. And the way we work, first I try the prototype. When I feel it's well-trained, I give to them because me, I'm more focused on the speed ability, the upwind ability, the turning ability. And Vincent and Julian, and especially F1, was more involved in the downwind aspect of the sports.
Then finally, we've been super complimentary. It was a complimentary team on that. And we talk about the tester, but we need also to talk about the designer. because what I'd like to say, I didn't design it alone. What is good with F1, F1 have a total of, we have a total of four designer for kites, wings, power wing, plume.
We have Charles Brodell, β which is designing a kite dedicated for hydrofoil. Ralph Grosel, which is dedicated also for the kites. β And we have Robert Graham, Robert Graham, which is dedicated to design some kites and some wings. But what is good with Robert's? Robert was a paragliding designer for the last 30 years. Then you have the
tons of experience I didn't have. Me, my only experience is to design kites, hydrofoil, windsurf, not windsurf sail, but windsurf hydrofoil and boards a little bit. And every time I had something that wasn't clear, I called Robert. I know Robert for many years also because we met on the beach and...
Daniel Paronetto (22:54)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (23:12)
We discuss all the time as designers, when you have two designers, meet together, they have tons of things to discuss and to share. Then because we've been in the same team, β I call Robert, what do you think about using this parameter on the design of the power wing? It could be good and we have a lot of discussion like that. Then finally, what is good is it was a complete team of riders that have different focus.
Daniel Paronetto (23:20)
are the best.
Mmm.
Nicolas (23:42)
me was upwind, was going fast on the water, was to have a lot of deep power. Julian and Vincent was deeply involved in the downwind and it was the catching, the stashing was very important for them. And after that, we mixed the feedback and we've been step by step to improve the product on that.
Daniel Paronetto (23:48)
Mm-hmm.
That's awesome to, I love to hear those moments in time where you're building the product and you need it to pack well. You need it to go up wind well. β and you know, you need it to be stable. β you need it to be user friendly and easy to understand as a, as a product. β so.
What were you guys trying to optimize on the frigate? it, I know you, you touched on a few things that you know it needed to have, but if you were to choose the one characteristic that's like it, it's, can't launch if it's not, you know, stable or whatever, because I feel like it's all a compromise, right? You can't have everything when you're designing a pair wing.
Nicolas (24:43)
Yeah.
Exactly. β I can say that there is two things that was very important β in my head. The first was to have a clean shape. when I look at, because I analyze a lot of paraglider, single skin paraglider, single skin kites, because there is already a lot of product that is very close to the power wing on the market. I felt that the front part of the shape most of the time was not super clean.
Daniel Paronetto (25:05)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (25:19)
Then the target for me, if we have the first 40 % of the leaning gauge that is clean, a lot of things will be simplified, you will have a lot of performance. And I was very focused on that part. And on the other side, what was very important with F1 is the fact that they had the plume. The first time we had a meeting with Rafael and Julian,
I didn't see the plume in real, never. Because when they go on the beach for the plume project, they go on the secret beach and never show the product because it was totally different and they don't want to have a competitor that know exactly how to do it. And for this history, the first time I saw a plume, immediately I take one of my kites and try to trim it like a plume to know exactly what could be the feeling. β
I said, yeah, maybe on the right way. And why it's right way with the plume is the plume is the product, the water sports product that is in the air that pull you using the air is the one with the widest wind range. And where we live in Montpellier, we have a very gusty wind. Sometimes the wind is starting at 15 knots.
Daniel Paronetto (26:19)
Mmm.
Nicolas (26:43)
go to 30 and go back to 15, up to 30. It's super gusty where we live. And the wind range, it's the minimal, it was something that was prioritary for all the other things. And the second one was the upwind. Because for me, a sports, I know a lot the walk of shame with the kites. I know the walk of shame with the first prototype of the power wing. We never want to...
Daniel Paronetto (27:03)
Nice.
Nicolas (27:12)
go for the work of shame. And my DNA was not from the downwind scene. I know that Julian and Vincent, even Raphael, for them, the objective at the beginning was not to go upwind because downwind is you start from one point and you go to another one and you take a car or a whatever you bicycle, whatever you take, but you don't start and finish at the same point. Then in the philosophy of the power wing,
and look at the real beginning, the first powering was on the market. The upwind was not something that was important. But for me, because I was so involved in kites, in wings, in all sports, I can start from one point and go back on the same point. For me, if we want to have the sport that is very well exposed and very efficient for all the riders, we need to have a good upwind ability. And even for the downwinders, what is interesting to understand
If you have a very good upwind ability, you will spend less time to go upwind and more time to go downwind. Then it's also for the downwind and from the beginning, this was important. The wind range, the upwind ability was very important. And also I focused a lot on the tack. It looks not very important, but we know how to gybe. But if we want to go upwind,
As my DNA was a DNA of a kite-coiler, I want to have something that is very stable during the tack. And what is interesting with the tack is if you can do a very easy tack, you know that you resolve a lot of things because it can be stable when you de-power, you have a good turning ability. Then I focus all the time on the tack. Even it was in February, I was tacking all the time, all the time to know what's happened with the power wing I had.
Daniel Paronetto (28:48)
you
Nicolas (29:09)
Then the three things, the key point for me for the design of the frigate was upwind, wind range and tack. It was the three things I want to have something that is satisfying for my own ride. And after that, I take in account the information, the feedback of Julian, of Vincent that was very focusing on the stashing. But the stashing for me,
Daniel Paronetto (29:18)
Mmm.
Nicolas (29:34)
doesn't look to be the most difficult property to manage on the power wing. For me it was wind range to have the stability because wind range is finally the stability. No collapse of the tip, no full collapse of the power wing. The first I tried, I remembered the wind range was only three, four knots of wind range. It's not satisfying. You can't ride with only three...
Daniel Paronetto (29:47)
Mm-hmm.
was limited, yeah.
Nicolas (30:03)
Every time I had a gust, where we live, it's super gusty, I crashed. I crashed all the time. I had a gust. I can't control it. Then for me, it was very important to manage a wider wind range.
Daniel Paronetto (30:11)
Hmm.
I have a question because I, there's a pair of wing in the market that has a very small leading edge profile. And when you have a small leading edge profile like that, it really makes stowing and putting the pair of wing away very easy because it's a you know, a smaller part, let's put it that way. β What does a bigger leading edge and a thicker leading edge give you?
for the para wing and why, you know, companies like you, there's other companies that have a much bigger, like twice the size, you know, of that leading edge. What's, what's that giving you in terms of performance?
Nicolas (30:53)
Just for information, have a lot of eco now. don't know what's happened. Yeah, in fact, what is very interesting in terms of design, because we are at the very first step, all the designers β take into account what they feel this is the right thing to take into account. For example, when you look at some powering, as you said,
Daniel Paronetto (30:58)
β I have nothing. I can still hear you fine.
Nicolas (31:19)
They have a very thin profile. It's like a hydrofoil. Finally, it works exactly the same like a kite. When you have a small leaning edge, a thin leaning edge, finally, what is quite interesting is for the packing, as you said, it's very compact because you don't have a wide rod, you don't have a lot of volume for the ribs, and it makes the stashing more efficient. But on the other side, you can have something that is with a more narrow wind range.
β I mean that you can't change a lot the angle of attack of the power wing. Then for the, what I can say, the aerodynamic point of view, it can be a weak point on that side. Then you can make a thicker profile as thick as possible. But when you make a very thick profile, you have a good low end. But finally, the benefits start to be a weak point also when you want to
to have a lot of acceleration β in the wind window of the ParaWing, then you have also a limit. Then for me, the target was to find a balance between the stashing β and the wind range, the upwind ability. And what is also important is to understand in the ParaWing design, for me, you have two different ways to manage the power.
It's like a kite for me. It works like a kite. It's exactly the same difference between a foil kite and an inflatable tube kite. Inflatable tube kites, you will work with the angle of attack a lot. With foil kites, to manage the power, to manage the de-power, you work more on the wind window. You push the foil kite more on the edge of the wind window and less on the angle of attack.
When I designed the frigates, because I was very focused on the windability, the wind range, I prefer, and because we have short lines, when you look at the foil kites, shorter are the lines and more windability you have. With the Powerwing, we have very short lines. Then we know that we have the wind window, we can manage it. Then I focused to design the frigate, which is not the case of all the Powerwing on the market.
It's quite interesting because β all designers have different points of view and depends on the program also. But I was so focused on the upwind ability, I preferred to design the frigate with this capacity to go on the edge of the wind window and to manage the power going on the edge window, wind window instead of working on the angle of attack like this. It's two different ways and when you work like this, it's better to have a profile that is
a compromise between a thick and a thin profile. Because if you have a thin profile and you work to go on the edge of the wind window, the thin profile already goes on the edge. Then finally you go always on the edge and you can't have more power. You have a lot of power. You have the power wing that is sitting on the edge of the wind window and like a kite, when you are on the edge you have no power. But you can't go back on the...
Daniel Paronetto (34:28)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. power here.
Nicolas (34:40)
deeper on the wind window because of a thin profile. And in the opposite, a too thick profile can sit deeper of the wind window and you can lose also the wind ability. And it was to find a balance between. And because of the shape, I was very focused on what I said on the first part of the leaning edge of 41st percent, with the, we will discuss I think later with the diagonal ribs.
with all the shape when you look at the Frigate, shape you have no bump behind the end of the mini ribs. It was designed to be very clean on that part and I was very focused on that part because the philosophy behind was to have something that can pull you even on the edge of the wind window like that, you will gain a lot of β efficiency in upwind legs.
Daniel Paronetto (35:16)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I feel like they from, the first pair of wing we saw to the pairings we have today, I think that was where they all improved in that top end of the wind range. And they all now β have what I, don't know if this is the right term, but I talk about it and I think about drive, like how much do they drive to the edge of the window? And now we're starting to understand how to fly them a little bit better. So now the concept of sheeting out and sheeting in.
is starting to become apparent for people who ride, how important it is for you to manage the position in the wind window, because not everyone coming into pair winging has a kiting background. And when we talk about the wind window, it's very easy for us to understand, okay, this is where it has to be for us to go up wind. You if I want to get up, I want it right in the middle of the wind window so there's power, so there's less lift and more power. β And those concepts now are becoming more more apparent. β And all the brands...
are tweaking little things as they go before launching a V2 or something like that. Is there anything that you guys have changed from the very first frigate that got into the market to frigates that we are seeing now, like little tweaks that are not considered a V2, but they're little improvements to make the power wing perform a little better?
Nicolas (36:57)
In fact, this is two philosophies for me. what is interesting is, for me, there is no one rule that will work. It will depend on the target you want to achieve on each powering.
For sure, the future we'll have a wider range of power wings because one will be more focused on the wind range and the wind ability because sometimes it's very close together, wind range and wind ability. One will be more focused on the deep power because now when you go from kite, from wing to power wing and especially when you go in a very strong wing, you feel that the power, the single skin.
because it's mostly the single skin that is like this, you can't totally depower it. More wind you have and more pressure you have on what we call the A-line, in fact, the front line. And this is something that can be tuned, but sometimes this is a little bit the opposite. If you want to reduce the pressure of the front line, you will increase the depower, but you will lose a little bit of the upwind ability. And the target is...
Daniel Paronetto (37:54)
Mm.
Nicolas (38:10)
to know exactly for this product what is made for. Is it made to help people to have more power? Then for example, what I call about the management of the power of the power wing, you can work on the change of the angle of attack. Or β if you want to have something that is very more performance, you work more like a full guide philosophy. And for that you work more on the wind window.
For me, the wind window, the target of the frigate was to have already something that is performant, have a good wind range, have a good upwind ability. Then it was the key point for this product. We will introduce more power in for sure because it's like all the sports, you have some people that are more focused on the downwind aspect. Some people are more focused on the upwind.
For my β personal β riding style, β fact, the Frigate was suiting everything I expected and we tried to put more downwind ability on the quite high performance products. But in the future, yeah, for sure we'll have something that is more dedicated for deep power, full deep power. Could be single skiing, could be other things because we are at the real beginning of the sport, to be honest.
One year ago, one and a half year ago, this part doesn't exist. We didn't know we ride almost 90 % of the time with a power wing, even when it's flat water. And for me, this is also a key point of the frigates. With my DNA of the kite foiler, what I like is if there is no shops, I want to have fun. And I want to make a very β hard tack. want to...
Daniel Paronetto (39:40)
I know.
You
Hmm.
Nicolas (40:01)
reverse it, ride it with the trailing edge in front. want to play with, I always play with kites like this, do down loops, kite loops, β put your hands on the water when you are making a tack. I like to do some things like that and play with the product that is in the air. Because for me, the most important is we talk about the product you use that is in the air. We have the hydrofoil that is in the water. We have the board that is
Daniel Paronetto (40:05)
me.
Nicolas (40:30)
the limit between and we have the the motor the engine that pull you and use the air and I want to all the time to play with that to have fun even if it's flat water because for me this is it will be a real sport only if we don't use it only for downwinding we need to have fun on the water even with the product and this is also because of that we introduce the harness line
Daniel Paronetto (40:52)
Mm.
Nicolas (40:59)
directly on the product and pull it on it because when you are focused on the downwind you don't need to have the harness line. It doesn't matter because you go only downwind then you don't have a lot of pressure on the A but when you understand that with the harness line for me the harness line is exactly the chicken loop of the kite.
You can ride a noob with a kite. You can, but you ride only a few minutes, 10 minutes, one hour when you are super strong. But that's it. But you lose a lot of potential of the kite if you don't use the chicken loop. And for me, the harness line, it acts exactly like the chicken loop. You transfer a lot of the power and you just have to focus on the driving of the power wing. And I know that Julian, I remember... β
Daniel Paronetto (41:20)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (41:50)
who was very focused on the Darwin aspect, we don't want harness line because it's not super simple, it's not in the philosophy, but Julian, try it. You will see. You will see because with the harness line, you can go up with faster, you can go up with effortless, then you will be focused on your Darwin aspect just adding β a harness line. He tried it one time and he said, okay, we are on the right way with that because...
Daniel Paronetto (42:17)
You
Nicolas (42:18)
We want to focus on the downwind. At the beginning, why the upwindability is important for the downwinder is when you do several times the same downwind, you want to go as fast as possible at the starting point. Then the upwindability is important even for a downwinder. And everything that can help you to go faster on the water, it's a good thing.
Because you have that also, you start to enter in a new world, finally, because you have a lot of control, effortless, like a kite. What I feel is when you compare wing, kite, power wing, windsurf, the one that is when you are riding on the water in terms of feeling, the one that are the closest is power wing and kite, finally. And especially when you have a performance power wing that can go upwind. For me, I feel like a kite with a short lines now.
Daniel Paronetto (42:53)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (43:16)
And it's super fun to ride and I felt in love with kite foiling and at this step in less than eight knots, no sport can compete with the kite. It's like that. It's because you can ride a big, kite, 11, 12 meter square. We can't have a power wing that is a 12 meter square because it will not fly properly. You will have the tip that will touch. But the efficiency of the kite is very amazing. And the target is to have something that is
Daniel Paronetto (43:17)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (43:46)
Close to that, I windsurf, I wing, I kite, and one that has a specific feeling is kite holding. And if we can have this feeling and share it with something that is very more simple than the kite, because kites have long lines, bridle is more complicated, relaunching is more complicated, especially in light wind, if we can achieve this target with something that is more simple, it's perfect.
Daniel Paronetto (43:55)
Mm-hmm.
Amazing. I feel a few, there's a lot of room for us to grow and I'm going to speak a little bit slower because of the echo. β when it comes to accessories for the power wing. So stowing devices, bars, harness hooks. β is there anything that you've identified as, you know, something that we need to in
in the accessories around power winging that you guys are developing.
Nicolas (44:45)
Yeah, and especially with the internet, we see a lot of things when you go to the Facebook group. My philosophy is always the same. Everything is not in my brain, it's not in the brain of the team, and we need to be super open-minded about all the ideas because...
Daniel Paronetto (44:53)
Mmm.
Nicolas (45:07)
What is interesting in our sports, we are not like Formula One. It's not the number of the engineers you have in the team that make that you will have a good product. Because finally, even in F1, we are a very wide team of designers. But when I talk about the designer, it's only the designer of the air product. But in F1, we are also designers just for the bar. We are a designer that is dedicated just for the...
For the bar, the harness line, I'm not in charge of that, but we discuss a lot. And idea is always to pass the limit you have at one moment. And the stowing, for example, I tried β all the devices we see on internet. I tried all of them, to be honest, with the pulley, without the pulley, exactly the same for the bridle system. I tried pulley without pulley, pulley in front, pulley on the back.
All the time I try to be as open-minded as possible. And finally, you have to find the right balance between what I will gain and what I will lose because there is no perfect world. If there is something that is perfect, everybody will go on that path for sure because it's perfect. Even if for me, nothing is perfect in the world, but something that is close to the perfection. And I tried it.
At this step, what we felt, be honest, if we talk about the harness line, the hook we use, we only win single points. And because when you go in light wind and the strong wind, you move a little bit the location of the harness line. When you are in light wind, you prefer to have the harness line more backward. And when you are in a top end of the wind, you prefer to have in front.
Daniel Paronetto (46:54)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (47:03)
then the way that add the harness line with a one single point, because for me, one single point is very important, is a good way to go to have a hook to connect on it. The ends where I give you today is not the ends where I will give you in maybe two months, three months. I don't know, it's changing so fast, but at this step, we felt that β we need to improve things.
Daniel Paronetto (47:12)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Nicolas (47:33)
For example, for me, if we can remove the harness line Velcro we have on the end when you ride it, it's not comfortable. Then we are working on the things, ideas to prevent this, to have it more comfortable. Exactly the same with the A-line. Sometimes when you depower, the A-line go with a shorter angle, a closer angle on the bar, then it's not comfortable with the ends.
Daniel Paronetto (47:41)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (48:01)
There is a lot of improvement to do for sure. But at this step, today, this is only the answer today, I didn't see any game changer, β a real game changer that would improve 1 % of my ride with the new feature I saw now and from what I tested. It's not perfect, what we have now for sure, but it's a good balance.
Daniel Paronetto (48:26)
Mm-hmm.
What about the stash belts?
Nicolas (48:33)
Now, we are working on that. We tested for a long time now and for that we give also to the riders. We developed a different belt. We'll be introducing in β winter, I think, if I remember well. And the target of the belt, have two different, you have different belts. The first is for sure, because we are in the philosophy of the harness line, we need to have a hook on the way we design the belt. But the hook,
Daniel Paronetto (48:37)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (49:02)
can be moved on the harness line because when you climb on the boards, don't want to have your board destroyed by the hook. Then we work, that's something you can move. Also it's in plastic, then you have less chance to destroy the boards. And also the philosophy we add is we know that some people are right-handed and left-handed, then they are more prone to have one side that is suitable for them and β for the other people, this is the other side.
Daniel Paronetto (49:12)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (49:33)
Then we develop a belt that is not putting the pocket wing from the top, but putting the pocket wing from the side. And the target is, because when you tip our wire and you stash it, the first thing you catch on the water is the front part, the leaning edge of the power wing. Then you finally, you catch first the rods. Then because you catch the rods,
Daniel Paronetto (49:55)
Hmm.
Nicolas (49:59)
The way we work is we have a pocket that is on the side. You put first the rods and after that you put all the wings like that. And for the bar, we have an order to put and for me, in my right style because I'm not, I don't have the DNA of the downwinder but I love to downwind. Now with the power wing, I never downwind with sub foil.
Daniel Paronetto (50:10)
Nice.
Nicolas (50:24)
because I'm not well balanced when he's not flying. It's like that. My life is like this. I'm not balanced when I'm not flying on the water. with this belt, we put an order for the bar. And for me, it was the biggest benefit on my ride just to put the bar on the order. Very simple. It's just a loop we created.
And just like I feel that I'm almost as free as a surf foiler because I'm a surf foiler. I'm not a downwind. I'm not a super foiler. I'm very used on the surf foiler. For me, this is the best port we have. It's the more essential. The more we have just the board shore, the board and the foil. Even if it's a foil, but when you want to fly all the time, this is the simplest tool we have.
Daniel Paronetto (50:53)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Nicolas (51:22)
to use and with just putting the bar on the belt, I feel that I'm very more free compared to grabbing the bar and stashing the power wing in the belt. For me, the first point is to leave the bar, not to have the bar anymore in the end.
Daniel Paronetto (51:35)
Mm.
Interesting.
Nicolas (51:51)
This is the more efficient to be introduced on the downwind part of the ride. And because we are left-handed and right-handed, what we did, because we are one side to introduce the power wing in the belt, you can just reverse it. you have one that is exactly the same. It's dedicated for right-handed and left-handed. You just have to reverse the hook, because when you roll,
Daniel Paronetto (52:18)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (52:20)
your harness, your belt, the hook is inverted. You just have to invert it, remove it from the ribbing, turn and put it inside. And this one is very β important. And for my R &D, all the time, it's not for the downwind, but I use all the time. I have one power wing β in the belt and one I'm riding with. And when I want to switch,
Daniel Paronetto (52:42)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (52:44)
I just remove it, put on the water, put the first one in the belt and I can test two power wings at the same time.
Daniel Paronetto (52:53)
I love it. β I think it's, it's definitely something that will evolve. β Because the, saw Jack Hall with an interesting device in Hood River, more of a vest type thing that he was stashing. That was, that was cool. And I feel that those, you know, options will start popping up depending on what style of riding you're doing, how experienced you are. β I feel that swinging.
Nicolas (53:03)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (53:23)
the stash boat forward and back. Don't know if we need to be doing that. You know, I think once you become a little bit more used to packing it down and packing it down neatly, you can still something in the back and it's not that, that hard. β but I love to see that you guys are developing something different, something that's based on, you know, your user needs and, and, and not just getting something out there quick, which I feel is like the DNA of F1. You're just, you just want to make something that's
really really high before me.
Yeah, I'm just happy to see you guys evolving and creating products that are not just what everybody has. You're really thinking about the user experience, how people can stash. How can we think of it from a ground level from, you know, no preconceived ideas and make it work like that. I have a question β about materials for the Parawing. We see, you know, things like Alula.
in wings and Alula becoming the best, the highest performing material β for wings. Is there anything that we can expect in terms of better materials for the power wings in the future or is, you know, ripstop where we're going to end up anyway?
Nicolas (54:44)
sure if the market is here, this is what I feel the market is here, we can work with the manufacturer of the fabric for sure. We had a meeting two days ago, we discussed about that for sure. At this step the powering history is very short. Then to be fast β on the market we need to
play with the fabric that is already on the market. We can't develop new fabric. When you want to develop fabric, what is interesting, I worked, it was not for the power wing, but I worked with Porsche. Porsche is the supplier of the fabric we use on the frigate. I know them with my company for many years now because I was involved in the R &D process of the fabric for the kite. They wanted it, it was three years ago.
They wanted to introduce a new fabric, a new speed fabric, the light fabric that you have on the kite and the wing. And I was working with them to be sure that the fabric is what all the designers and the brands are looking for. And I was already involved in that and it's super interesting to visit a factory that is producing this kind of fabric. They are the...
number one in the paragliding fabric. And at this step, today, we use what exists on the market. It's not perfect. For example, what we use is made in nylon. we have a coating. Nylon, when you put on the water, it elongates. Then you have a coating to prevent that, to make it hydrophobic and not to have this property. But this is nylon.
Most of the power wings you have on the market, especially the light power wings, the Frigate is not the lightest one, for sure, but for me it's a part of the light power wings on the market. It's not the lightest, for sure. And all this fabric we are using is from paragliding.
This is not something that is dedicated for water sports. It's not because when you develop a fabric that is dedicated for powering, it doesn't matter the sand, it doesn't matter the salt water then. But at this step, it was quite okay to use it. Then it works well. We can see now we have some powering that are on the market for one year. β For sure, they are not behaving like a brand new one, but it's not that bad.
It's quite okay. The behavior is not changing a lot, but it's changing like a wing. For example, when you ride a brand new wing and you ride a wing that is one year old, even if it's the same model, it doesn't act exactly the same. And for us, the target is to find now a fabric and develop also, because the DNA of F1 is very, very interesting.
especially compared to my own company that is very small, then I can't knock at the door of the fabric supplier and, β we want something that is exactly like that, like that, like that. I can't because the quantity I will order is nothing for them. But with F1, we are at a step that we can discuss with the supplier of the fabric. Then for sure, in F1, we are working on that.
Daniel Paronetto (58:11)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (58:22)
but it will not be in six months because the fabric is something that is very, β it's a long-term process to develop a new fabric because you need to know the edging, you need to know the tearing, the stitching, how it works after six months, one year, and it's a long process. When you want to develop a new fabric, my philosophy, it's even if you work with the best supplier for the fabric, it's at least two years then.
We are now on a market, a good market. I think we have a market we can discuss with the supplier of the fabric. But new fabric for sure we'll have it. But maybe I'm wrong, but I'm sure that it will take at least two years to develop a new fabric using fabric that exists, lighter or whatever, something that is more compacting for the stashing.
Daniel Paronetto (59:19)
Hmm.
Nicolas (59:21)
we will use the fabric that is on the market. But we have two different ways to work. One is think β outside the box and think about something that is very special to the power wing design. And this is the future in one year, two years, maybe more, it depends because sometimes you develop something that is finally not, didn't have the performance you expect. Then.
Daniel Paronetto (59:40)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (59:48)
What is good with F1 and I like to work, I was very surprised on that because it's not because I know Rafael for 30 years that I know how to work with him and with his company. It's totally different when you see people outside or inside the company. It's totally different. But what I feel is there is a deep knowledge in F1. They are never afraid to develop new fabric.
not only new design, but also new fabric. They introduced new fabric on the wings. And the DNA of the company, for me, I'm brand new people in the company. I'm just here for I work with them only for a since a few months, then it's very short time. But what I feel, yeah, there is no limit on that. And it's quite enthusiastic. for people like me that
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:33)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (1:00:40)
always think when I'm sleeping I think power wing or whatever, all the things I want to improve because it can be everything, can be a hydrofoil, can be a kite. And here there is no limit. Then for sure we see fabric that is dedicated for power wing just for the fact that we are using fabric that is dedicated for paragliding and is not power winging, definitely.
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:44)
you
Hmm. I, β it's so interesting to, hear these things and how the company works and the ideology of the people behind the company. love it. let's talk about your riders a little bit. β you have an incredible team of riders. β who is the rider who is impressing you the most on the pair wing?
Nicolas (1:01:34)
There is lot. β Because in powerwing it's exactly like the other sports. have the freestylers, have the downwinders, have the surf foiler. All they arrive with their own DNA, their own muscle memories. When I was at the AWCI in Hood River,
Daniel Paronetto (1:01:37)
You
Nicolas (1:01:59)
I was very impressed by the freestyle rider, what they were doing with the power wing, like Liam, like Lucas, like McDonald's. It was impressive. They train a lot in wing and you know more than me, compared to wing. Wing is quite slow to behave like that when you use the boom, but with the power wing, just...
Daniel Paronetto (1:02:10)
Crazy. β
Mmm.
Nicolas (1:02:26)
move a little bit like that, it changes everything. And these guys are able to do front loops, back loops, and they don't train all day long, they train in a wing. They just do it one hour in the day because they want to have some free time and what they are able to achieve with that, for me it's very impressive. And on other side, I discuss a lot with Kiai, I met him in real
β at the AWS also, but we already shared some emails previously because he was one of the first to try the frigate. And he had very good feedback. And when you look at him riding, same for Jack. Jack, I never met Jack because I'm brand new in the company. I really would like to meet this guy because he looks so awesome when you look at his last video.
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:05)
Hmm?
Nicolas (1:03:24)
is riding the backwash of the wave with the barrel. It's something for me where I ride, there is a lot of rocks, I have a lot of backwash, but never I think I could ride on the opposite way of the waves. He did it. And this is very β interesting and both of them because I'm very...
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:29)
Yep.
Nicolas (1:03:49)
aware about the freestyle. Like freestyle, I'm not too to try freestyle now with the wing. For sure, I'm not able to do what they are doing. But I don't want to cut myself, to hurt myself, because my job is to go on the water and to trim the power wing. My work, my job is to trim the power wing, not to push the limit of the power wing in freestyle. Then I need to save myself on that. But when you look what they are doing, it's very, very amazing.
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:58)
Thank
Nicolas (1:04:17)
all of them in different aspects because what is interesting to the Para-Wing is you have all the aspects of the other water sports, you have the freestyle, you have the downwind, you have also the racing, we'll see the racing when you look at ThΓ©o de Ramcourt at the dΓ©fi, it was a huge race in France with 400 riders and with the Para-Wing it was...
Daniel Paronetto (1:04:18)
Yeah.
Mm.
Nicolas (1:04:44)
blasting all the wing, the top wing riders. And everybody was surprised about that. for me, no. For me, yeah, it was clear from the beginning that the Para-Wing will be faster than a wing. Especially the wing that is the design now. And what I say all the time, my reply of today is not the answer of the future. Things change. Alula changed a lot of things on the wing design.
Daniel Paronetto (1:04:53)
Mm.
Nicolas (1:05:11)
And you have the the fall kite also at the real beginning when you look at the kites. The first kite I bought it was the F 180 K. It was a fall kite that was to be honest, it was complicated to ride at this period. We are are two line. I had a backpack with palm because every time I crash I need to swim to go back on the on the beach. And finally this is the same DNA the fall kite that's win the Olympic Games then.
things change a lot and everything we have a new sport or we have a new focus on the sport will be a game changer in terms of design and this is what is very exciting on that.
Daniel Paronetto (1:05:56)
The, β I feel, I feel like we, we need to touch on the plume a little bit because when the plume came out, β it got a lot of criticism from the market. And I think it was mainly confused as a pair of wing because it was launched at the same time, but, β F1 came out with more communication and explaining that the plume is not.
a para wing. It's something else. So can you explain to us like what is the plume designed for and who can benefit from the plume?
Nicolas (1:06:36)
Yeah, and the first time I see the prune, most of the people, when you look at this and when you have the DNA of the kite, I always go back to the DNA of the kite. It looks like a Whippika Classic, the first inflatable kite in the world. Everybody is talking about that. Yeah, it looks, but it doesn't behave like this. I had the Whippika Classic.
Daniel Paronetto (1:06:52)
Yes!
Nicolas (1:07:01)
And what was good with the Whippika Classic at this period is when you buy a second hand one, you can sell it more expensive than you buy it because no one had it. No one had it. It was super rare to have it. And it looks something like that. But now I have the...
the design file because I work a little bit also on the plume and I can say like a designer point of view with a 30 years old experience on that. This is not a WIPIKA Classic because I worked for WIPIKA. Then I know exactly the file of the WIPIKA also then. It's totally different. You have something that can look very close and feel definitely completely different.
What is β common between the plume and the parawing is the vertical bar. It behaves, you control exactly the same. You have the power β up and down and you have the turning ability side to side. This works exactly the same. And for the other things, it's totally different. The first one is because you have the leaning gauge, you have the best of the kites.
because the leaning edge β makes the front part very stiff and you have lot of power. You can have what I said previously, you have two different kinds of... Manage the power with the power wing, changing the angle of attack or going more forward on the wind window. The Plume has this special property, it has both because the leaning edge is so thin,
can't compare it with a wing, for example. A wing, when you look at, I don't remember exactly the numbers, because a wing diameter, a leading edge diameter is around 24 centimeters, when a plume is only half. It's not 24, it's 12 centimeters. And in terms of drag, it changed everything. It changed everything. And what is very interesting, I was like...
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:56)
be huge.
Nicolas (1:09:14)
All the people I was fighting with the power wing in last September, last October to trim it. The first time they gave me a plume to ride, was in β end of February, if I remember well. And I was fighting at this period with the wind range of the power wing. And when you try the plume, you have a gust, doesn't matter. You have a five meter plume.
Even if the gust is 30 knots, doesn't matter. No harness, nothing. You don't have this effect that with the power wing, more wind you have and more pressure you have on the front arm. With the Plume, it's stable, it's steady. All the wind went strong. This is why you don't need any harness line to control in the wind and in a very gusty wind. The other thing I feel with the Plume,
and because I ride a lot with wing also, the timing you need to switch from the riding β part to the downwind part, for me it's quicker to pass from the riding part to the downwind because you just have to grab the safety leash and the plume is just falling and you have the handle that is directly in your hands. It's quite impressive that.
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:36)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (1:10:43)
And compared to a wing, β you need to move forward your hands and grab the free fly, reverse the wing, you β start to not reverse, putting like that, but you... And you start your downwind. The timing to go from the riding to the downwind is quicker on the plume. And this is when you are used with that, it's super interesting to understand. When you have some quick downwind, for me, it's definitely...
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:56)
Mm-hmm.
interesting.
Nicolas (1:11:13)
quicker, easier to switch from riding parts to downwind parts. And the other benefits, and this is one of the key points for me of the plume, is when you have the plume β just touching the water like this, it sits on the water, it's super stable. When you have a wing, for example, you just put the wing on the water, sometimes you reverse, sometimes you need to roll it. The plume...
Daniel Paronetto (1:11:18)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (1:11:40)
never move like that. It's waiting for with a tip sitting on the water like this. Then it's super easy to climb on your board and to stand up because it's waiting for you. This is quite impressive. It's like you have some kites, beginner kites, also a little bit like this. You can put on the edge of the wind window and it sits on the edge of the wind window. You just have to grab the bar and you let go. And these three properties, the wind range, that is amazing.
Daniel Paronetto (1:11:51)
Mmm.
Nicolas (1:12:10)
Even if we agree this is not the low end that is the best benefit of the plume. For sure the low end is not as good as a free gate for example. The low end of the plume is of the 5 meter is almost the same than a free gate 4 meter. But the top end is even wider. It's quite impressive. Then when we talk about the ring range we need to talk about the full range and
The feeling is equal in the light wind range of the plume and the top end of the plume. The feeling, the bar pressure is almost the same and it's a very good feature. And for some people that are in very gusty wind or not very, how can I say that? Don't have any kite experience or wing experience. This is one of the
easiest tool you can put in the hand of a real beginner in water sports. Definitely. But you need at this step today, we need a little bit more wind. If you don't have at least 15 knots between 15 and 20, for sure it's more complicated because you can't generate a lot of power. It's behave a little bit different, especially in light wind. For example, with the power wing, when you want to pump, you pump with the end very frontward like that.
to pump it to be efficient, not to shit it in too much. With the plume, it's totally the opposite. It's like a fishing can. You need to take it like this and you pump like this and you have a lot of It β doesn't behave the same than a power wing. You have different things like that, but when you are used with that, it's super interesting. And this is the only tool.
in the water sports we have now that have a wind range like that and it's quite impressive.
Daniel Paronetto (1:14:11)
I was always curious to understand the benefits of the plume and it seems to me like the perfect entry level parrowing for you to start on your parrowing journey and understand how it flies, how it behaves, and then maybe going to a single skin or something like that. Now, the, β we still lack a lot of, β information on what to do.
Nicolas (1:14:29)
Yeah, definitely.
Daniel Paronetto (1:14:39)
when you get your pair of wings. So you bought a frigate, you're all excited. What do you recommend people do for their first time unpacking and they're on the beach? What should they do to learn how to use the pair of wings properly?
Nicolas (1:14:53)
The first thing is like new sports. It's not because you have deep knowledge in wing in kites, then that you will know exactly how to go for a power wing. For sure, if you have the perfect condition, I see some people last time I was testing the 4.7 frigate prototype.
And I gave it to the video camera rider that is used with wing. It was perfect condition, β approximately 18 knots. Good wide long board, quite big foil. It was able after 100 meters long to fly. And sometimes it works, but it works when you have the perfect condition.
You have to think that when it's light wind, the power wing is not where it works the most. It works when you have β a minimum wind strength to go. If it's light wind, even if you know how to manage the pumping ability of the hydrofoil, you need to manage the pumping ability of the power wing also. And every power wing is not behaving exactly the same. You have some you can...
You have some day you can't pop you need to more downwind than when you are a beginner. You need to to accept not to go in light wind first and to be a not. I see some people that are very unhappy. I had only 10 knots. I think it was good to go in 10 knots because it's safer, but no, you need a minimal minimal wind strength to go.
If you don't have this wind strength, will fight. β You don't have the knowledge to know how to handle perfectly the synchronization also between the pumping of the foil and the pumping of the power wing. Then you need wind to learn first. And the other thing is it's not because you know how to ride with a wing. It's not because you have your stuff for wing foiling, especially in wing. We have a shorter boards, wider boards, β smaller foils.
Daniel Paronetto (1:17:09)
Hmm.
Nicolas (1:17:11)
You need to accept to invest first on a bigger foil to invest in a midlands or if you are in a very light wind, but you are very enthusiastic and you want to learn absolutely the power wing, maybe go on a downwind board, even if the balance is more difficult. It depends on where you live. If the wind is 50 knots, you need to accept to have specific tools dedicated for light wind. If you live in 20 knots,
Daniel Paronetto (1:17:28)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (1:17:40)
Go in 20 knots with a 4 meter, β 1300 centimeter square hydrofoil. Go big at the beginning. Go big. Take your board at least 20 to 40 liter more than your weight. And like this, the target is to spend more time flying than more time just glide on the water without flying. The target is to fly you.
Daniel Paronetto (1:17:51)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (1:18:09)
What you need to improve is your flying ability, not your riding ability without flying. Then you need wind. You need longer boards compared to wing, for example, because in terms of boards and hydrofoil, is the closest water spot is the wing foiling. Then it's longer, the mid-length is perfect. Me, I ride now, I do both wing and...
Daniel Paronetto (1:18:28)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (1:18:35)
and power wing, β plume and I have only one board. It's 80 liter, six zero for me is perfect. But when it's super light wind in less than 40 knots, I have a downwind board for sure is more efficient. I can't ride with a mid lens board when I can ride with exactly the same foil with a downwind board. Then you need to understand where I will learn. Then if this is a
Daniel Paronetto (1:18:43)
Mm-hmm. Nice.
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (1:19:03)
location that is flat water, have good wind, 20 knots, you can go with almost everything. But if you have only 15 knots, for a beginner, me it's the limit, approximately 15 knots. Lower, it's very technical, and a beginner can't be introduced on the spot in 10 knots, even if we are introducing bigger and bigger size of para wing.
Daniel Paronetto (1:19:23)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (1:19:32)
Because the secret of the light wind is the size of the power wind like all the water sports.
Then just being able to be sure that you know that you will learn a new sport, even if you have some similarity with other sports. But the way the bar behaves is the only sport that is like that. You have the plume and you have the power wing that drive with only one hand. It's not a kite, it's not a wing. The wing is with two hands and then it's on the other side. This you have to train and you have to learn. After that, you have some... β
Daniel Paronetto (1:19:41)
β
Mm.
Nicolas (1:20:08)
Also try it in winter time. For example, if you do some skateboarding, during the winter it was very cold on the water and I would just want to trim one bridle, then I bring a wakeboard and a carving board and I go with my power wing like that. Then it works also. But put some protection because if you crash, I don't want to be responsible of that, but you can use a skateboard and...
What is interesting also with the water sports, with the power wing is, it's not only water sports. You can use also on the ground with a skate, with a snowboard on flat. You can't climb a mountain. It's like a wing. The only tool that can climb a mountain is a kite because you can turn, turn, turn. have the wind window. You can play with that. But a wing and a power wing, can't climb a mountain. If you are 40 knots, yeah, you can, but you can use.
Daniel Paronetto (1:20:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Nicolas (1:21:04)
with a snowboard, a ski, on the ice. A power wing is quite fun to use it. It's not only a water spot.
Daniel Paronetto (1:21:13)
Can't
wait to see that. Yeah. I would love to see some people try those things. I saw a guy on a frozen lake with skates on the power wing going so fast. And I imagine how cool would it be to have a circuit and do a circuit with the power wing turning and then maybe going up wind with it. All sorts of ideas started to come. β But where, where do you see the sport growing? You know, we had.
Nicolas (1:21:23)
Mm? Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:21:42)
a first wave of people that came onto the sport and understood it pretty quickly because they saw the potential. What's the next wave of adoption now? Where is it coming from?
Nicolas (1:21:55)
For me, is mostly the win range. Definitely. We need to increase the win range to even if it's today acceptable. If we should talk eight months, not eight, but last October, I will say that for me, the para wing is not a real sport because we don't have the win range and we need to increase the win range. After that,
the sport will decide itself finally. Some people will be focused on freestyle because you have some good opportunities on freestyle. Some people will focus on the racing also because it can be so fast. For me, could be one of the fastest water sports on the water with a hydrofoil because the weak point of the power wing. And this is something that is quite interesting. When you look at the...
arising of the new sports, I mean the wing and I mean the power wing. It was only possible why it appeared only now. It's because of the hydrofoil, because we accept to use an hydrofoil. The kite was the only water sports with the windsurf that don't need any hydrofoil to succeed. But if you remove the hydrofoil on the wing and the power wing, this part doesn't exist on the water sports.
because you lose the windability, you lose the efficiency. At this step, we can't ride without any hydrofoil. Could be a way to go. How to give a good feeling on the water without an hydrofoil.
I don't know. Let's see. We are at the real beginning of the sport. On the other side, can be the racing with an hydrofoil. And for sure, I'm sure we can compete very close to the kite foil performance in terms of upwind, in terms of maximum speed. Because the DNA is very close. And we have shorter lines. What the kite foilers want all the time in racing, they want to have shorter and shorter and shorter.
But we have a limit is a site because we have very short line. The size of the power wing is the limit in terms of design. When I designed the free gates at the beginning, we focus only on three, three point five, four meter. And after that, we say, OK, try to make a big one. Four point five. Yeah, worked well. OK, try to make a big one. β Five point five. Yeah, it works well. Then we introduce on the market. It's on production now. And after that, five point five is
We tried, OK, go to 6.5. It works. But I feel that today we are the limit of the shape, of the span, of the wing. With the knowledge we have today, I don't feel we can use bigger comfortably with a good feeling, bigger than a 6.5 or something around this. But if we change the shape, I don't know, if we add some new feature on that.
Daniel Paronetto (1:24:53)
Mm.
Nicolas (1:25:03)
or new profile, there is a lot of investigation to do. We discussed just a little bit, the double skin or different way to design a para-wing. There is a lot of things. Double skin, tried it. The first time I tried the double skin with the para-wing, it was in October. We took a double skin, it was not with F1, but it was...
Daniel Paronetto (1:25:12)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Nicolas (1:25:28)
We took a double skin kite that was dedicated to be used on the beach, but it works quite good. It was interesting. It was a close sail. There is a lot of room, but for me, the wind range is the first. The second one could be this behavior to have. What we have now is the increasing of the strength of the A-line when you go in a stronger wind. We need to resolve it.
Daniel Paronetto (1:25:55)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (1:25:56)
And after that, will depend if we go on freestyle point of view, maybe we need to adapt the shape to have a better turning ability for the loops or whatever it depends on. The stashing, if we can make something that is stachable, even smaller, removing some rods. There is a lot of things to explore. But the rods at this step, I know we
Daniel Paronetto (1:26:08)
No.
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (1:26:25)
put a lot of frauds on the frigates because the focus is first performance. The stashing ability need to be acceptable. I think it is because we don't have a very long line. β It was, for example, it's the same. was when we designed the five five and the six point five with my guide foil point of view. I think in light wind we need longer lines. And after test, finally it was the opposite.
Daniel Paronetto (1:26:36)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Nicolas (1:26:55)
In light wind, we need shorter line. Why? It's because we need to turn. And if you want to make a jive, a down loop, because when you go in light wind, you need to do a high-necked jive or a down loop, meaning now 90 % of my jive, I do a down loop. Even with a three meter, I was so used and this is the only way with the tack to turn. And we need to turn.
Daniel Paronetto (1:26:55)
Wow.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (1:27:22)
And if you use longer
Daniel Paronetto (1:27:22)
Yeah.
Nicolas (1:27:23)
line, you can't do a download because the wing will touch the water and you can't restart. And when I do a download with a 6.5, my end is up like this and the power wing is pondering like that. And when I finish the turn, the apparent wind is higher than I can β just really deploy it. With longer line, I can't do that. But with the...
Daniel Paronetto (1:27:49)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (1:27:51)
thinking of the kite foiler, it didn't work. Then we learn all the time in the design rules, longer line is more stable. It's always like that. Longer line you have and easier is to design a power wing or a kite. It's always like that. But for the light wing, we need to have shorter line because we need to turn. you need to take in account all the time and this is what I...
Daniel Paronetto (1:28:14)
Interesting.
Nicolas (1:28:20)
tried and with the F1 we are really focusing on that to try the constraint of each size of each practice because it's like a kite you can't say to people that you can do the same tree that the Red Bull contest with a 14 meter square. No, you can't. It's impossible. Physically it's impossible. It's not the same sport when you ride a meter than an 8 meter.
With para-wing it's exactly the same, it's not the same sport when you ride a two meter and when you ride a six meter. But what is interesting with para-wing, the distance in term of behavior between a two meter and a six meter is one of the closest compared to all the water sports. With a wing, when you ride a big size, you have the span, the tip is touching all the time the water when you pump.
Daniel Paronetto (1:29:10)
Mm.
Nicolas (1:29:14)
You have the tip that touches the water, it's less efficient. And when you ride the three meter, it doesn't matter. With the power wing, finally, it have this ability to touch the water when it's well designed. It doesn't matter. You can compensate. And finally, this is the sport that I feel we have less difference between riding a six meter and riding a two meter.
It's not the same for sure. I don't say I ride the same with a 2m than a 6m, but the difference in terms of riding style is one of the closest compared to the other water sports.
Daniel Paronetto (1:29:48)
Mm-hmm.
I have one last question that I would love for you to give β your perspective on. And there's a lot of people that I talked to that are still sitting on the sidelines waiting. They see the potential, but they're not really committing to the parowing yet. What can you tell these people that will help them just give the parowing a shot?
What does the power wing do that you can't do in any other foiling discipline?
Nicolas (1:30:27)
For me, the real new thing of the power ring, first is the simplicity. You have a small bag like this, you just put out the bag and you put in the air and you are ready to go in the water, on the water, on the ground, on the snow, on the ice, whatever. It's super easy to do. β It's very intuitive. I have my son that is 11 years old, he's quite old now, but...
Daniel Paronetto (1:30:44)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (1:30:53)
The first time when he was β four years old, I designed a wing. It was a two meter square just for himself and he tried it. And it was fun because he feel the power. Even in 30 knots, he was playing with that. But with a power wing, he's playing immediately. And you play with these three dimensions because we focus on the downwind and we focus on the riding.
It's a really 3D tool in the air and super fun to you can start it, you can turn, can put on the on the top of your head and you you ride in 3D and this simplicity you have with only one bar and you can ride with only one hand. If you want to ride with one hand, can all day long. You can. It's not a trouble. You just need to change your hand when you change your your tack. But it's very simple.
Daniel Paronetto (1:31:40)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (1:31:50)
It's something that even it can be a rescue tool for the kite foilers and the wing foilers. Because if you have trouble with your equipment, with your kite or your wing, this is something if you learn how to use it, it can be a rescue tool also for this guy. I know some people that are racing a lot and now they have a power wing on their back in of trouble. And for me, the thing is very easy to ride.
Daniel Paronetto (1:32:08)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (1:32:20)
very easy to control because it's like a joystick of a computer when you want to play a game. This is the only water sports. You control everything, the power and the drive with only one hand. There is no sports like that and it's super easy to use. For me, β I will not focus on the downwind aspect because the downwind aspect you need to know how to pump first, how to glide on a wave then
Daniel Paronetto (1:32:30)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (1:32:50)
you will not, don't focus on that part of the power wing, even if for myself, I was not a downwinder because I was not so stable with the paddle and I never do that. to be honest, I didn't lie that because it was complicated to start, but for sure, this is the easiest way to be introduced on the downwind, the power wing with the wing. But for me, it's not more difficult with the power wing than a wing.
Daniel Paronetto (1:33:03)
Mm-hmm.
Nicolas (1:33:21)
But the riding style is one of the fastest on the water, be honest. Even with a single skin, when I ride a free gate, β I like to ride fast because I have the DNA of the kite foiler and I want all the time to be fast on the water. And on my spots, I'm not as fast as a kite foiler with a foil kite. For sure, they are a huge step forward.
I am faster than any wing or any average kiter. And this, you achieve that with only a simple tool that is only in one meter far away from you. And compared to wing, what is interesting, even if the line are very short, it's only one and a half meter, but the visibility you will gain, it's a mix between kite, it's something in the middle and the fact that you...
You gain one more time this visibility in front of you when you want to to see in front of you, just move a little bit up the power wing. You see all the water around. This is something you, the first time you try the power wing and you have the experience of the kite, you feel that. You feel that the visibility you gain compared to a wing that is very in front of you, compared to a sail of a wind saw that is in front of you.
Daniel Paronetto (1:34:32)
Mmm.
Nicolas (1:34:40)
You gain that and you gain the view of the the sport and you can play on that and what I like is when I look at the screen here, it's my philosophy with the power wing is I want to go on each point of the screen. I want to play with that and it's super easy to do now with the tool we have in and it's very impressive how the progress were made by every brands. The upwind ability make that you can play on all the screen you have in your head.
Daniel Paronetto (1:34:56)
Hmm.
Nicolas (1:35:10)
And it's super interesting to use that. And after that, yeah, the simplicity, the simplicity. Now, the longest time I spend to go on the water is to assemble the foil and to put my wetsuit. Then if you can lose 10 minutes or five minutes before going on the ride and five minutes at the end of the ride, you gain 10 minutes of ride for the day.
Daniel Paronetto (1:35:25)
Yeah.
Nicolas (1:35:38)
Sometimes when you have only one hour, 10 minutes, it's huge. Then you go on the ride of water as fast as possible. Fortunately, I have a car that I can just, I never unscrew the hydrofoil. I just bring the longer, the time I spend the most is to put the wetsuit in winter. In summer, it's like a surf finally. You are as quick as a surfer to go on the water. That's huge. More time on the water and more...
Daniel Paronetto (1:35:38)
No.
beautiful.
Nico
Nicolas (1:36:08)
feeling of this sport you will have, definitely.
Daniel Paronetto (1:36:11)
I, um, yeah, look, I agree with everything you said there. Um, it's such a pleasure to meet you. And I can't wait to see what you guys do in the future. Can't wait to see more accessories coming out, uh, more power wings, more models. So let's keep in touch. And whenever you have.
more information and anything you want to share, reach out and I would love to have you back whenever you're ready to share some more information with us.
Nicolas (1:36:40)
Thank you and thank you very much Dan for everything you did because I always see your video and we've been at the beginning of the sports and you know that everything you did was very important for all the sport, for all the community because it was well explained, you share your experience which is very very important not to fake things or it's every time is honest and really would like to congratulate for all the things you did.
Daniel Paronetto (1:37:10)
Thank you. That's means a lot coming from you. I, we, we all are doing this because we fell in love with the discipline. So it comes very naturally to, to talk a lot about it, guess. Well, thank you, Nico. And I'll let you go on with your day. We'll catch up soon, mate.
Nicolas (1:37:28)
Yeah, see you. Thank you very much.
