Daniel Paronetto (00:00)
we have Jack Ho. I remember seeing the guys on the Parawing riding five foot boards and my mind was like blown. was like, how do I do this? How can I ride a smaller board? What gets me most in the zone is probably when you tap into bumps that you can surf. You have a 30 minute long wave and you have like, I don't know, maybe 500 cutbacks in a run. you know, for me, what I look at the most is hand placement.
What are your hands and arms doing while you're foiling? What kind of gear are you finding works well for the power wing? Just sitting on my table, but um... Yeah, whip it out. Yeah, this is kind of what we're running. You've been to Hood, France, to Maui for a little bit, I can't even remember, and then you went to New Jersey. How are you lining those things up? I haven't announced it yet. This is, guess, the first time I'm announcing it publicly. I'm making a movie with...
Daniel Paronetto (01:04)
Hey, lab rat fan, I have a question for you based on you listening to this podcast. You are either learning how to parowing, you're thinking about getting into the sport, or you are already parowinging and interested in improving your skills and knowledge. So if that's you, I want to invite you to the lab rat Academy, an online parowinging course that will give you the right foundation to progress your parowinging into new heights.
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Daniel Paronetto (02:35)
Welcome to the Lab Rat Foriler podcast. My name is Dan and today we have Jack Ho. β my God, bro. Thanks for coming on.
Jack Ho (02:44)
Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Stoked to be on the show and talk foils. I'm always a pleasure to hop on a podcast with notable people in the industry and β chat. thanks again.
Daniel Paronetto (02:54)
Dude,
thanks for coming on. Like I've been β following you and everything you do on a foil around the world for a while now. β and seeing you get stoked on the parrowing for me was like, yeah, you know, this is, this guy knows what he's doing. If he's doing the parrowing, there's something there. So, β we're definitely going to be talking about parrowing, but before we get started on everything that we need to talk about, I always like to just ask the guests a little bit about their background.
Jack Ho (03:10)
Ha
Daniel Paronetto (03:22)
I know you have a very rich background in water sports. β and I feel that kind of leads on to how you ride the pair of wings. So it's cool for me to know a little bit about your water sports background and how did you get started in the water?
Jack Ho (03:39)
Yeah, so I'm here, I'm back home after a couple months of traveling at my home in Waikiki. And this is the house I grew up in and started surfing out front. You know, the beach is five minute walk that way. And started surfing when I was five years old, longboarding in Waikiki. you know, developed this passion for surfing and fast forward, age 13 or 14, got into the foil.
I was longboarding every day after school at the time, but was already looking for something to bring that spark back. The repetition of surfing every day kind of got to me. β Once I started seeing other people start foiling...
It was only inevitable that I wanted to try and I was able to get my hands on a super junk used set up. And it costed $500 at the local used surfboard shop. And it was a made in China foil. There's no logos on it, nothing. And the board was a short board for someone who was probably 300 pounds. so yeah, I started foiling and...
Daniel Paronetto (04:31)
Bye again.
Jack Ho (04:44)
you know, the downwind came and all these different aspects of the foiling sport kind of came to life throughout the years. And now we're here at 2025, the newest craze is the para wing for downwind foiling. And for me, I think what gets me the most excited is foiling or riding in places that I would never have been able to surf if it wasn't for the foil.
Daniel Paronetto (04:46)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. A hundred percent. I, for me, like, it's so cool to see, cause you started proning first when you jumped into foiling just because of your surfing background.
Jack Ho (05:17)
Yeah, mean, so where I live there's wind, but it's not like Maui where the wind is cooking every day. none of us who grew up together had a wind sports background. didn't, know, none of us kited or, you know, did anything like that. So the easiest way to foil was just paddle it on your stomach and you know, our boards were four and a half feet long.
low aspect really curved out surf foils and we'd paddle into waves and just ride them as far as you can and then pump out and you know at the time it was just linking as many as you could and then you know one day we caught a wave and we just started pumping down the coast and just going and riding these little bumps and this had to have been maybe like 2020 by now and
you know, we'd make it half a mile or a mile and it would feel like the biggest success ever. But that was the start of the downwind scene. It was just on our prone boards. You know, at the time still no SUP, no wing. And it was like only prone because that's what we knew and that's what we did. And that's kind of what evolutionized into this whole industry now where we're at, which is amazing.
Daniel Paronetto (06:22)
So good.
So from prone, you made the jump into downwinding, sub downwinding with the paddle or was there anything in between?
Jack Ho (06:33)
Yeah, yeah,
so from prone, I remember watching Kyle Enne, Annie Riker, Jeffrey Spencer, and his brother Finn, like all those original guys in 2018 doing the SDP. And I knew that was the goal to the longer run because if, you know, where we live, if you fall on the eight mile run, you're paddling a mile and a half back to shore and it, you know, it takes an hour. I've done it before. Then you...
Daniel Paronetto (06:50)
Hmm.
He
Jack Ho (07:02)
Once you get to shore after paddling an hour, you're on the side of the highway, like trying to hitch a ride back the way you're trying to go. And it's just like not a really feasible thing for most of us to kind of risk every day, you know, just for a 30 minute ride. So I knew this up was kind of the β option that would allow me to open up those longer runs, but.
Daniel Paronetto (07:13)
Not ideal. Yep.
Jack Ho (07:25)
I didn't do any supping when I was a kid either, so I didn't know how to paddle. All of it was just self-taught, and my first sup was 5'6", 24 inches wide and 80 liters. It was a straight box. Yeah, mean, seeing the boards these days, it's crazy how accessible it is for people to get into the sport now because the boards now are one million times easier than what we were learning on. It was to the point where...
Daniel Paronetto (07:28)
Hmm.
Yep, that'll do.
Jack Ho (07:54)
We didn't even want to tell other people to try to learn because it was so hard that, you know, there was a pretty good chance they weren't going to get it. But now with the Dave Kalama inspired Barracuda boards, that being the original design and, you know, shifting it an entire industry with long narrow boards, it makes it accessible for so many people to get out there now and learn the sport. And then now with the pair of wing, that's the next step up.
Daniel Paronetto (08:03)
Yes, sketchy.
Hmm.
Yeah, where, did you, β first see the parrowing? Like, do you remember the first time you put your eyes on it and you're like, what the hell is that?
Jack Ho (08:31)
Yeah, the first time I saw the Paroing was probably last summer in Hood River. I've been going to Hood River now for five years since high school and every time you go there's a new thing happening there. it's, know, they have this magical river with wind every day and swells and it's a perfect place to develop ideas, to test gear easily. So every time you go there's a new fad and I remember last summer I saw Kyle Maligro with this trash bag looking kite thing and this was before
It was even called a parrowing. This was before parrowing was even a thing. It was literally this kite thing that he held with two lines and two handles and would kind of fly it like this and pump it to get up. And it looked like an awful design, but it was allowing him to ride the smaller board in the river while all of us were still on the six or seven foot long SUP boards.
Daniel Paronetto (09:20)
Mm-hmm.
Jack Ho (09:26)
And I remember seeing that having no interest just because it looks so difficult. then β this past summer in Hood River, I went in May and I go every May β when there's a strong gust of wind or a two day, three window, two or three day window of wind. And I remember seeing the guys on the parrowing riding five foot boards and my mind was like blown. I was like, okay, how are we, how do I do this? How can I ride a smaller board?
Daniel Paronetto (09:41)
Mm.
Jack Ho (09:54)
and how can I switch that feeling of getting off the SCP to a five foot prone style board. And I got to borrow one and it took me a few days of struggling at the hatchery to kind of get it. I never flew a kite before, I never really winged and all of this was new. And it took me two days, kind of figured it out and then I was able to get going at the hatchery.
you know, very rough way of doing it, getting up, you know, fumbling it a few times and barely getting it under your arms and stashing it. you know, once it was stashed away, I knew I wasn't going to fall or, you know, I was confident enough not to fall. Right. So that's really all I needed it for was to get up.
Daniel Paronetto (10:35)
Yep, you know how to stay up, yeah.
Yeah. It's, um, I want to touch on a few things you mentioned there, because I think it's always cool for us to double click on, like going back to that first session that you had in the water with the pair of wing, probably in 30, 40 knots, whatever it was blowing at the hatch. Like, what was the hardest thing for you to understand about the pair of wing at those early days when you had no instruction of how to even pop this thing up in the air? Like starting from scratch, where did you go?
Jack Ho (10:56)
Mm-hmm.
So I think my disadvantage was I was on a five foot two inch 47 liter prone board that was like it stayed on the top but like not completely but it was too big to fully sink. So I'd be like I'm 155 to 160. Yeah and you know I'm on the lighter side or not kind of mid range but still just like
Daniel Paronetto (11:25)
How much do you weigh,
Jack Ho (11:38)
really hard to sink and I would do this like squatting, jet ski, toe up position kind of on the surface of the water. And then while I was flying the kite and you know, the hardest part was not doing any wind sports growing up. So the kite lines were getting tangled and it was like freaking me out. That was just like another stress thing. And then my legs were getting super tired from squatting in that position for, you know, 20, 30 minutes waiting for the perfect opportunity to get up and then.
Daniel Paronetto (11:43)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Jack Ho (12:08)
Once I was up, I had no problem flying it, but then the next kind of thing that I had to learn was the stash. I mean, even now, my stash is terrible, but it works for me. What I learned is that everyone has a different method of stashing the parrowing. For me, I don't want to use it again once I'm up. Once I'm up, I want to put it away and not touch it the entire run. It doesn't really matter how I stash it. I can get it tangled and I know that it's just going to sit there.
Daniel Paronetto (12:23)
100%. Yep.
Do you
Jack Ho (12:37)
And if
I do fall, then I can take it out and untangle it and get it up. But it's not the most seamless transition.
Daniel Paronetto (12:44)
Yeah, like you take your time with it and, then it's probably a good time for you to have a pause in the run anyway, cause you fell because what you hit a fish like in New Jersey or something. And then you just like, I'm just, yeah, I'll take my time with this.
Jack Ho (12:52)
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, we were in New Jersey last week and there's so many fish. hit something or maybe you're doing a turn, you fall or breach, whatever it is. And when you do fall, you're not in a rush to get back. You probably get on your board, take a breath, take it out and kind of look around, see where you are, admire the view that you keep going.
Daniel Paronetto (13:13)
Yeah.
It's so cool what you said there because, β a lot of people getting into the sport now, I think everyone has super high expectations of like their progression in a new sport, but I think it's really important for people to reflect in their experience with other foiling disciplines that can help them in the parrowing. Like you said, you were with a 40 liter board, but you had the board balance to stay kneeled on that board for like 10 minutes if you wanted to, because you tow. So you know how to get up.
on the board that way. β probably like proning, you know, you, you, you have the pump, you know how to glide, you did downwind so you can stay on foil. Like what, what were the things that you think you brought from all the disciplines that you already did that kind of made parrowing, you know, that much easier because you had those skills.
Jack Ho (14:03)
Yeah, for sure. mean, just growing up on the surfboard, for one, is like the first step of just having that.
comfort on a board and in the ocean since I was a kid and then you know with the downwind stuff we were used to riding our prone boards and the only option is not to fall or else you're paddling. So we learned how to know downwind 10 plus miles without falling and maybe you're not doing radical turns the whole way but you're like efficiently foiling and not you know coming off. So I took that just for the stash you know you have to be able to stay up for at least a minute while you put it away and and that's a minute of
Daniel Paronetto (14:37)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jack Ho (14:40)
only half concentration, you half the time you're riding by feel and you're just feeling the bumps, trusting the water while you're looking down, putting it in your, in your thing. But you can feel the next swell setting up or you've done it so many times, you know exactly where to go. And then the get up comes from the jet ski. Yeah, like when you tow up on the ski, you're on a prone board, you sink it, you kind of squat and bring your knees to your chest, let that board.
Daniel Paronetto (14:57)
Yeah, it's huge.
Jack Ho (15:09)
just sit right below your feet and then you wait for the jet ski to move. And in a way, the parrowing is a lot like a wind powered jet ski, you know, it's just that toe to get up. when you're using the parrowing on a smaller board, that jet ski toe up feel is exactly what you're gonna find with using a parrowing on your prone.
Daniel Paronetto (15:30)
Yeah, that's awesome. And yeah, I think, β it's always worth touching on that. So people can kind of just recalibrate their brains when they're getting into the sport. And if they're like, well, I've only winged in my life. So there's, there's going to be a lot for you to learn. Like you will need to learn how to read swell. you know, like it's a, it's going to be a massive progression. β what's a good tip for people who are in that kind of position? I think there's a lot of people coming in from winging, β with a winging background.
Jack Ho (15:47)
β yeah, definitely.
Daniel Paronetto (15:58)
And they have maybe the skills to balance on a big board, you know, with a pendulum in their hand. β but they want to start down-winding. What's a good way for them to start doing that with the para.
Jack Ho (16:11)
Yeah, mean, like, I mean, you take downwinding, for example, that's already the hardest aspect of foiling and, you know, it takes a lot of people over a year to really understand. And, you know, it took us multiple years to go from the prone to the sub. So it's this transition of kind of letting your β ego down and accepting the humble pie that's going to get served. I mean, just like with anything, if you want it.
Badly enough you're gonna put the time in to do it and I think the number one tip of tip of advice is to go into knowing that it's not gonna be easy that it's gonna require some time because I think a lot of times the problem is people think they're good surfers or they're maybe a good foiler in their mind or they they're competent in one part of foiling and they want to do another part of it so badly, but
you know, it's not a hundred percent direct translation from aspect to aspect. Just like if I went wing foiling, you know, I probably...
would take a few tries to get up and once I'm up not feel entirely comfortable doing it and that's just because I don't do it that often, right? So I think if you want anything badly enough, you're gonna put that time, you're gonna put the energy into it and you know, there's pretty much a 99 % success rate in doing it because you know, the thousands of people who've started foiling in the recent years are the proof that.
Daniel Paronetto (17:17)
Mm-hmm.
Jack Ho (17:38)
anyone can do it. In our local community here, a lot of the older guys who are crushing the down runs maybe haven't surfed in 10 to 15 years or maybe haven't surfed in their lifetime and were former canoe paddlers, but now they're picking up the foil and learning how to do it. So I think that just shows that you don't have to be good.
Daniel Paronetto (17:49)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Jack Ho (18:01)
to learn how to do it, but you do have to put in that time, that energy, that effort into sacrificing, you know, maybe some days where you're gonna fall, but if you reach your goal, it doesn't matter.
Daniel Paronetto (18:11)
yeah.
Yeah, dude, I am. When you talk about that stuff, it just, it brings me back to the days that I started with the SAP as well. And that journey to learn how to downwind, you know, you get up on foil, your heart rate is at 200 and then you start, you know, you're starting at such a disadvantage of having that tunnel vision of very, you know, high heart rate. And then you have to learn how to connect bumps. And if I look back now, if I had the pair wing, I'd be like,
Jack Ho (18:38)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (18:43)
No screw this paddle, man. I'm going to get the pair of wing. Cause with the kiting background for me, was pretty intuitive and just do that. Like I get on a wave. I'm at, you know, 80, 80 heart rate, like super calm. And then I can actually do the thing that I want to do with a little bit of a mind frame to it. So how do you compare the paddle to maybe starting on the power wing for downwind these days?
Jack Ho (18:55)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I mean, what you said was kind of like spot on with the kiting background and everything. And, you know, I think, you know, for people listening, a big part of it depends on where you live, like geographically, where you're located, what your local conditions are. Like, for example, in my community here, the South Shore Oahu downwind community, there's maybe a few guys who picked up the parrowing, but I think.
Daniel Paronetto (19:19)
Hmm.
Jack Ho (19:32)
the pair wing doesn't really have a everyday use here just because we get awesome swells and big open ocean energy, but it's not necessarily always windy. You know, it could be 10 to 15 miles per hour, but the bumps could be more than enough to go downwind.
Daniel Paronetto (19:43)
How windy is it? yeah.
Jack Ho (19:51)
You know, for us, the paddle is kind of the saving grace where every day you can guarantee get up if you know how to do a flat water start or start in small bumps and you can go ride. But on the opposite end, like if you live in Hood River and it's windy every day or if you live in a place where you have consistent wind, I mean, there's, you know, hundreds of spots all over.
at least in America, if you don't count the rest of the world, where there's consistent wind every single day. And if you have a spot like that, then the parrowing is the no-brainer because you're adapting to those conditions, you're using what makes the most sense to succeed. if the parrowing is a lot easier for former kite surfers or windsurfers or people with wind sport experience, then that's the route you should go just because that speeds up the learning curve so much.
Daniel Paronetto (20:20)
Mm-hmm.
Jack Ho (20:42)
supper for example, let's say someone from Hawaii who is really good at sub surfing or has prior SUP flat water racing experience, I've seen people like that pick up the SUP foil and learn within a few weeks just because they're coming from that much more of an advantage than everyone else.
Daniel Paronetto (20:56)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. That's cool. Yeah, I would definitely like for whoever's trying to get into parowinging, like just do a list of whatever you think you have an advantage in, like leverage that. If it is, you know, β getting up and, surf, β in, in like prone, I've seen, you know, James Casey now he's like proning pop up and then he launches the pair wing while he's pumping out. β cause he also has light winds. He's like in 15 knots and getting up.
Jack Ho (21:23)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (21:29)
50 knots in the pair wings, the slog, man, it sucks. yeah, look, I think that's, β that's a valid point. And I want to get into a little bit of technique as well, because like, I'm a huge fan of your writing, just style wise, β intensity and just the breadth of, know, your dynamic as well. You're not just doing, you know, like super hard turns all the time. You have a flow, like you just.
Jack Ho (21:32)
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
Daniel Paronetto (21:57)
It feels like you're really taking advantage of what you're seeing in front of you and just using that as much as you can. β what do you feel brings the best out of you when you're out there on a downwind run? What mind frame or what, what do you have to be feeling to be like, yes, I'm at one with what I'm seeing right now.
Jack Ho (22:19)
Yeah, well thanks so much Dan for saying that. I appreciate that. And I think for me, there's multiple personalities of downwinding. You can either go on a small board with a pair of wing and maybe a surfy foil and go do carves or you can be in open ocean with drawn out swells on a SUP board just trying to go fast. But I think for me, captivates
me the most about downwinding is the freedom of expression in like this endless area. You know, if you're surfing, you have maybe 30 seconds on a really good wave to do as many turns as you can. you know, granted, that's a different type of riding. The downwinding is almost the most freest form of riding just because you have the entire ocean. And, β you know, when you're, when you're riding and you look,
50 to 100 yards that way you're there in a few seconds and you're riding those waves and I joke like the downwinding is basically surf foiling but there's a hundred waves right in front of you, you know, and yeah and so I think for me when what gets me most in the zone is probably when you tap into bumps that you can surf because my whole reason for downwinding is to just increase that feeling of surfing for
Daniel Paronetto (23:28)
Mm-hmm. It's like a skate park. Yeah
Jack Ho (23:45)
10 miles or 30 minutes, however long that is. I mean, if you went up to any surfer and asked them if they want to surf a right hand point break for half an hour straight.
Daniel Paronetto (23:58)
You
Jack Ho (23:58)
I mean,
you'd be silly to say no. So I think, you know, if your answer is yes to that, then the downwind is the closest thing you can get to an unrealistic 30 minute long wave. so yeah, where I guess where I find the most flow is when you're really tapping into the energy and you know, one swell is lining up after the other and there's no pumping in between. mean, for me, a seamless run looks like connecting your carves to where you're carving into the next bump.
Daniel Paronetto (24:07)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Jack Ho (24:28)
and using the speed and momentum from that turn as a pump to get you into the one in front. And then once you're locked into that one, carving back the other way, drawing another S, and just continuing that for as long as you can. when I'm...
Daniel Paronetto (24:39)
Mm.
Jack Ho (24:45)
absolutely locked in on a, you know, maybe it's a head high swell or something that feels big or maybe there's a stretch of water that looks like it's about to stack up really well. All I think about is being on a powder mountain snowboarding because for me that's the closest feeling. And then, you know, the second thought is surfing that point break. So all these like other activities that I love to do that I, know, snowboarding, surfing perfect waves, they all come into mind while riding downwind. And I thought,
Daniel Paronetto (24:53)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jack Ho (25:14)
think my style and the maneuvers I want to do are inspired by all these different sports.
Daniel Paronetto (25:21)
Yeah, a hundred percent, man. That's awesome. The, when I, when I think of you, I think of you with a couple of lenses, like I definitely see a lot of surf and I definitely see a lot of down winding. β just the things that I feel like you like to do. If you were to choose the perfect or like the most fun conditions to get out there on a foil, what would you be doing? And what will you be like, what would you be writing down wind prone or what?
Jack Ho (25:47)
it's probably
Hood River, Rufus, or Arlington somewhere out east. Yeah, it's unreal. And I've been going there for five years now. And every time, gets more amazing and more amazing. And I think for me, the fact that I have to get on the airplane travel to go there, it creates this adventure narrative in my mind that we're going on some fabulous surf trip, but we're like...
Daniel Paronetto (25:53)
God, Rufus is just unreal.
Mm.
Jack Ho (26:16)
eight hours from the nearest ocean and I think the bizarre factor of striking a little river, if you told that to a surfer they'd laugh, but if you told that to a foiler they'd ask to come and join you. I think this like...
Daniel Paronetto (26:30)
Mmm, 100%.
Jack Ho (26:34)
kind of narrative of it feels like you're going on some secret surf trip or secret surf mission. β That's kind of what makes it super exciting for me. But also, mean, the river itself and the swells are just the most perfect thing ever for foiling. mean, it's like that river was created for the foil one day. mean, you know, everyone does it on different crafts, whether it's a canoe, a SUP stockboard, a prone paddleboard, a kite board, whatever it is.
Daniel Paronetto (26:53)
Yeah.
Jack Ho (27:04)
You can't argue that the foil is the best tool for that river. And you're literally surfing slash snowboarding slash like bull skateboarding for 45 minutes on this perfect down and run. β yeah, mean, I just have, yeah. Yeah, have, yeah. Yeah, I have so many good things to say about that place and. β
Daniel Paronetto (27:07)
β it's unreal.
I just wish they went for longer. you just, I just wanted like a 20 mile. Like you just needed more.
Jack Ho (27:31)
But yeah, I guess the perfect setup would just be like a surf wing, something that turns really nice and has some glide. And β the parrowing, of course, I mean, to ride your prone board or ride a smaller board than you're used to is the ultimate on that river just because it feels like you're hoverboarding. The SUP is already so amazing there. And once you chop that board length in half and ride something super small, it's mind blowing.
Daniel Paronetto (28:00)
Yeah, I resonate with that. When I went there in July and I got a good couple of good Rufus days and there were moments that I was just in that river looking like I was close to the wall and it just stacks up so well in that section of the river. And it was glassy, huge, slow and super like packed. it's like when you said,
Jack Ho (28:19)
Yeah. Fuck, how good, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (28:24)
Um, scape bowl, that's what it feels like when you're going down and you look up and you have like these little wedges that you jump into, you're just jumping into this another bowl. And it's the funnest thing ever, man.
Jack Ho (28:34)
Yeah, and I think another thing is too is like, you know, your brain recognizes patterns and when that pattern is solved in your brain, you get this, this fill of dopamine, right? And so there's this cognitive thing that's happening is these perfect swells are kind of lining up and you know, if you downwind or if whoever is listening has experienced this before, you know what it's like to see it set up.
Daniel Paronetto (28:40)
Mm.
Jack Ho (29:02)
and then see it scoop out and then break again. And when your brain sees that and recognizes the pattern over and over again, it's a constant dopamine hit every time.
Daniel Paronetto (29:13)
Yeah.
Jack Ho (29:13)
on top of the actual riding itself and like, you know, I've never seen anything like it where you come out after you do the run and there's, you know, 15 guys giggling, standing there like, you know, you don't really know how to contain yourself if it's really good. You come out, you're hearing screams, my gosh, that was fricking firing, you know, and like.
Daniel Paronetto (29:26)
Crazy.
Jack Ho (29:36)
You're never gonna hear that in a surf lineup, right? You're never gonna see 15 guys at the same time coming in from a session together, high-fiving, equally stoked. know, usually one guy got the good wave and everyone else maybe had a bad session. So I think there's this very unique kind of aspect of this place and you know, there's no sharks if you...
Daniel Paronetto (29:38)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Fresh water,
beautiful.
Jack Ho (29:59)
if you got
into some sort of accident where you got cut or you got hurt, you paddle five minutes to the side of the river and you're safe. So it's like everything about it is just, safe, it's fun, it's like the easiest place in the world to do a downwinder. And it just makes all these things make it so great. And that's by far, in my opinion, the funnest and most best place to go foiling.
Daniel Paronetto (30:23)
That's awesome.
The, yeah, I went for the first time this year and it's to be hard not to like try to go back every year. β and I was watching, β yeah, I was watching that one clip that you have pinned to your profile. That roof was just stacked like straight off the bridge. It was already massive. And I'm like, God. And I just went through that clip and just like watching you ride and how you transition from rail to rail. And I was like,
Jack Ho (30:29)
totally
Daniel Paronetto (30:51)
When I think about my writing, always, I think I'm better just going front side and know, sharper turns that way. My backside turn when I'm going back, I feel like I do a longer arch. It's never as tight. What's, what do you do with like foot placement and just like body position to just really drive those turns and stay in that pocket as much as you can. Cause that's super important for.
going to that next level of downwinding where you're actually turning and having fun.
Jack Ho (31:22)
Yeah.
So I think, I mean, for me, I watch a lot of snowboarding. I'm a...
big snowboard fan but not that good at it myself. So I feel like when I'm on the mountain snowboarding, I can't do what I wanna do even though I know in my head exactly what that looks like. And then when I see the clips of me, I'm like, β man, like I'm just not naturally good at this. So I think when I do those turns on the foil, that's kind of in my mind, my way of feeling like I'm competent and.
in that snowboarding space. So I take a lot of snowboard inspiration and for me, what I look at the most is hand placement. What are your hands and arms doing while you're foiling? Because the person who's maybe doing the most radical turn but their arms are in the air, fit flailing, form-wise, that doesn't look as good as someone who's maybe doing smaller turns or.
Daniel Paronetto (32:02)
Mm-hmm.
Jack Ho (32:18)
turns that aren't as big, but they're composed and calm the whole time. Their arms are either down or next to them or formed out. So I think that's one thing is like, you know, making sure that your whole body is working as one to stay calm and composed through your carve. then, you know, when just like surfing, you know, if you give a 50 % bottom turn, you're only gonna get a 50 % top turn.
Daniel Paronetto (32:21)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jack Ho (32:44)
And
you know the great thing with the foil is that it's way more forgiving than the surfboard but you know there is something to be said about when you get to a bump that's super stacked up and if you do want to try to rip this section of river or bay or water wherever you are. β Utilizing to go straight down the bump, do a bottom turn so you're coming up.
on the face just like a normal surf turn. And then when you go back into that carve, you're going to have so much more power and energy and utilizing the whole bump. There's the wall of it, the trough of it, the crest of it. And when you start your turn going in at the top of the bump,
Daniel Paronetto (33:14)
Hmm.
Jack Ho (33:25)
drawing it throughout the bottom of the trough all the way back up onto the next bank. And in a place like Hood River, there's so many peaks everywhere that, you know, if you mess up that turn right in front of you, you just fall out the back and you're in the next peak. So you have all these options of where to kind of ping pong to. And really you just got to pick the one that makes the most sense to either move forward or get you to the next bump. And a lot of times it's not always going forward. know, a lot of times it's...
Daniel Paronetto (33:44)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jack Ho (33:55)
falling back or going to the side or using a smaller bump to get to the next bump. And for me, the number one thing is not pumping. If I can like go a minute or two with just carving and not pumping to the next bump, then in my mind, that's like a good section that I flowed through.
Daniel Paronetto (34:13)
Yeah. And it's super hard to do. I think, β I saw a little while back, a couple of the boys posting like the no pump challenge and just doing like a section with, know, and really focusing on that. And it's hard. Like sometimes you're just like, β I got to eat a little bit to get there. And, with the, I think the cool thing about the parrowing is that it allows you to explore that without having, you know, that thing in the back of your mind that you need to paddle up. Like if you do 10 paddle ups in a session because you're falling and stuff.
Jack Ho (34:28)
totally,
Daniel Paronetto (34:43)
You're going to get exhausted, you know, you're going to get tired, especially in the beginning when, then you're like, Oh, I'm going to, I'm going to write it 80 % because I don't want to fall. hate that feeling. Like you need to fall. You need to fall and push. Otherwise you're not going to go anywhere.
Jack Ho (34:58)
And also, you know, when you have that pair wing as a kind of backup crutch to like have security that you're not going to be stuck out there and you can just get up again, you know, it's almost like...
Daniel Paronetto (35:05)
Mm.
Jack Ho (35:11)
The downwind surfing is your opportunity to practice foiling. You have a 30 minute long wave that goes for eight to 10 miles. Let's say we're talking about Rufus or some of the other Hood River spots out east. β And you have like, I don't know, maybe 500 cutbacks in a run. Me and my friends have thought about it. Let's say you're doing one turn every five to 10 seconds, or let's say one turn every five seconds, how long is that? β
hour long run and you can do the math but β you're doing hundreds of cutbacks over and over again and like maybe on camera if you're watching as a viewer it gets a little repetitive but like that feeling stays the same every time. Every time you do a turn it's that ultimate feeling of just hoverboard frictionless gliding above the surface of the ocean which is mind-blowing to me you know seven years later still and
And especially if you're trying to practice something like whether it's arm placement or form or you you get so many reps doing that over and over and over again, or even in the ocean on a surf foil session, you know, you still got to catch the wave, then you got to pump out, then you got to make sure no one's in your way. But the downwind is just over and over and over. And β
Daniel Paronetto (36:28)
Hmm.
I think that's
why it's so addictive and I feel everyone's like, β but you have to shadow. But all of that stuff, β if you have a good crew, is like you need to find people you want to hang out with. You know, it's fine.
Jack Ho (36:38)
That's the best part. Shadow's sick. I love it. Hell yeah.
I know definitely, mean, think that downwind is a special thing on the foil and you it's different than downwinding on the canoe or a stand up paddle. You know, it's like literally endless surfing and you know, the closest thing I've done is split boarding, but like you still have to walk up the mountain two plus hours at least to get to the top. And then maybe you get a five minute run down with.
only one minute being in the most critical section of that face. So then you kind of hit your ride out or you hit the lower section of the mountain that you're on. And then you have to walk up the mountain again, two hours where the foil is like for the reward, there's so little effort. And you you drive 10 minutes up 10 to 30 minutes up, and then you get a 10 mile stretch back. And then after you're done with, know, 30 to 45 to maybe an hour of riding,
You come in, you hang out with the crew that you went with, talk about how good it was, and then you get back in the car, eat some snacks, and you go again. So it's like, you're using that shuttle time to get the socializing in, and then after you socialize with all your friends, you get to go ride. It's just like the most perfect form of like pleasure reward combo with the amount of effort you put into it. And yeah, like a good day of foiling downwind is hard to.
Daniel Paronetto (37:48)
We'll debrief.
Jack Ho (38:11)
hard to match.
Daniel Paronetto (38:13)
Yeah. I, um, going back to that topic of turns and stuff. I, I want to talk a little bit about gear because I know you ride maybe like a 600 kind of, um, square centimeter foil kind of roughly. I'm normally on an 800 and I started exploring with just shorter fuses just because, know, it definitely helps with turning, but also just the speed you, you gain from them. Um, going downwind is incredible.
I've been riding now the, β code eight 10 X that surf foil, and I was just blown away at how much faster you actually go with it compared to a high aspect foil, which kind of blew my mind. And you do need to understand how it works, but what, kind of gear are you finding works well for the power wing and what are you riding out there?
Jack Ho (38:54)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so I feel like the whole point of riding the parrowing or using a parrowing is to ride a smaller board because if the board didn't matter, everyone would just stay on the SUP and there wouldn't be that progression of going down to a smaller craft. And with the smaller board, your whole kind of β objective is to start turning and feeling that different sensation of carving a small board downwind. So.
Daniel Paronetto (39:11)
Mm-hmm.
Jack Ho (39:31)
I think for me my foils have changed a lot in the past few years. Like when I first got into downwinding it was all about the high aspect here and trying to go as fast as you can and with the least amount of drag and just point and shoot. But in my opinion that gets boring. know, it's like going straight on a wave. Like yeah, it's fun. Maybe if you're in huge stuff and you're just going fast, but like for the most part, if it's just an average day or you know, average conditions and you're just going straight.
That longer board makes it little harder to turn and the high aspect foil kind of just tracks in a straight line. So I think this year after going to Hood River, just basically rode more surf-inspired wings. mean, right here, just sitting on my table. this is my go-to diamond wing right now. And it's a 800 Eagle X with the tips chopped off. had my name.
Daniel Paronetto (40:23)
Nice. What's the aspect
ratio of that one,
Jack Ho (40:28)
I don't know. Well, 12 it says. It says 12, but I mean, yeah, it's pretty like, you know, a few years ago when this came out, this was the most high aspect kind of β design that we've seen yet with F1. And then now with the momentum that takes the place. But I mean, if you look at it from here, there's still like a pretty solid amount of cord. And so this wing I've foiled Maui to Molokai, Molokai to Oahu and
Daniel Paronetto (40:30)
Roughly.
Yeah, it's still high aspect. Yeah, super high.
Mm.
Jack Ho (40:58)
Maui to Lanai on this foil, this exact one. With the curved tips and all, basically the idea was to take your high aspect downwind wing and just chop it so it turns better. About an inch, So I think, imagine an extra inch to here. But you take off an inch, you round it out, and all of a sudden now you have this downwind surf machine that
Daniel Paronetto (41:12)
How much did you take off?
inch.
On each side. Yeah.
Mmm.
Jack Ho (41:28)
The pump's just as good. mean, yeah, maybe there's like 2 % difference in the tips being off with the efficiency, but like, as long as I can stay up on foil and not work that hard, that's all I want. And then also, it's not the fastest wing, so it's the perfect speed to just stay in the swell. like, you know, you don't want a super fast wing to go do turns downwind because what you're looking for is that support with...
Daniel Paronetto (41:40)
Yeah.
Jack Ho (41:57)
When you draw the turn, naturally you're losing speed, you're losing glide. But you still just want that support from the foil to just keep that low end lift going. And generally foils that go really fast don't have good low end. And I think for downwind surfing, it's all about the low end because you want to be able to just stay on foil. You want that support through the turn. And you also don't want to go that fast because then you're outrunning the section. It's important that you match
Daniel Paronetto (41:59)
Hmm.
Jack Ho (42:26)
the speed of the bumps you're riding. So for Hood River, for example, you want, I would take a skate wing or something that's a lot slower β to match that speed of the bump where in Hawaii, like for example, crossing the channels, this foil, even with it chopped like this was plenty enough speed for me to keep up with the swells.
Daniel Paronetto (42:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Yeah.
Jack Ho (42:50)
And
then you also gotta keep in mind that like we were doing this five years ago on the shittiest wings ever that were so slow and you know so bad. So anything now that's available in the market is already the best foil ever a few years ago. So if you adjust your perspective in that way then really you can make anything work.
Daniel Paronetto (42:56)
Mmm.
Yeah, true. In terms of board and, β do you, are you just on like a mid length or are you still on that 40 liter sinker most of the time?
Jack Ho (43:21)
yeah, actually I have it right here. Luckily I'm in my boardroom and would love to show you, but, there's some mess over here, but, yeah, this is kind of what we're running. And this is just, you know, it's a surfboard shape, pointy nose, and, β let's see, what does it say? Five to 17. So.
Daniel Paronetto (43:29)
Yeah, whip it out.
By
how many liters? 47. Jeez, that's small,
Jack Ho (43:50)
47 liters, 47. And
this is the exact board that I learned how to pair a wing on. it feels like a surfboard. It fits under my arm just like a surfboard. And when you're up and riding, it does have this incredibly surfy feel to That narrowness, being able to roll easier than the small compact length. mean, if I'm going to Hood River tomorrow, this is what I'm taking.
Daniel Paronetto (44:11)
Mmm.
Jack Ho (44:18)
with, let's say a three meter wing just for safety and the guarantee pop-up. then, β yep, that's a production board. you know, most of the gear these days, whether it's production or custom, it's also good that it's, you know, anyone can just buy a foil now and go ride, you know, back in the day, it was really important to make sure you have all the best stuff because the sport was so hard.
Daniel Paronetto (44:25)
Is that a production board?
Yeah.
Mmm.
Jack Ho (44:48)
and the foils were efficient and you wanted to make sure that every little bit counted where now I feel like all the foils are really good quality and pretty efficient that you can make anything work.
Daniel Paronetto (45:02)
Yeah, if you buy something new these days from any brand, it'll be pretty, pretty good. Yeah.
Jack Ho (45:06)
β it's excellent. Yeah, the gear's
insane. And you never would have thought that the gear would have gotten to this level when we first started, you know?
Daniel Paronetto (45:13)
Mm.
The, β the other thing I wanted to touch on with you is because of your surfing background, I feel that's like a big unexplored area in para winging that people are starting to push now, which is powered up wave riding with the para wing. Like you see cash do like, you know, clearing sections on the wing and that kind of stuff. And you see, you know, Mallow doing insane things as well. And do you feel like that's something that you would get into having the.
you know, flying the pair of wing while you're on a wave or you like your instinct is just to put it away.
Jack Ho (45:51)
To be honest, I don't think I'm at the level right now where I could successfully do that. Ideally, yes. mean, it looks pretty insane to be riding a windy spot and you like tow yourself into a big bomb that you wouldn't be able to, you know, human powered get into it. But... β
Daniel Paronetto (46:07)
Mmm.
Jack Ho (46:14)
I think for me, the flying and the stashing is still a little bit uncomfortable in a non-perfect downwind situation that I wouldn't be able to feel comfortable riding a huge wave with the lines and everything. β the videos that I've seen of it, it's definitely another option for accessing...
Daniel Paronetto (46:29)
Yeah.
Jack Ho (46:38)
outer reefs or windy waves and you know, the ultimate, a jet ski is cool. I went toe foiling this morning with my jet ski, but like the ultimate is human powered expedition and β human powered, you know, sports is kind of the ultimate of, you know, the entire extreme sports world. So I feel like when you get yourself into a really big wave or a really gnarly downwind situation, whatever it is without a motor or a jet ski.
Daniel Paronetto (46:48)
Mm.
Yeah.
Jack Ho (47:08)
It's all impressive, know, so credit to those guys who are towing into big waves with the pair of wing and using it on the wave to their advantage. But I think, yeah, truthfully right now I'm just not nowhere near that level to try. And I think it's dangerous too with the lines. mean, like, you know, I think it would be smart to, you know, if you're doing an open ocean downwind run.
Daniel Paronetto (47:15)
Mm.
And it's also, think, what... It is dangerous. It's worth saying that, yeah.
Jack Ho (47:35)
carry a knife with you just in case you have to cut your lines. Or if, let's say, you were to get tangled, very unlikely situation, but still a possibility. There's all these things that can happen with the lines that I'm not ready to deal with yet that I think would get in the way. β
Daniel Paronetto (47:52)
Yeah. Yeah. Look, and
we always like to talk a little bit about that stuff because I think you can get yourself in a shitty situation with the pair wing very, very easily. If you're like a beginner into downwind, like in downwindings. if you like, you just shoot yourself three kilometers off the coast and you've never done that before, like for you to get to that on a sup, it takes you a while to build up to that. Right? So you get, have the experience to then be out there.
But if in the second session, you're like, yep, I'm doing a down winter and I'm, you know, off the coast for a long, and like, those things are great kite knives and all that stuff. But I think people don't, don't feel like they don't use the gear. β so when it comes to an extreme moment that you need to use it, you don't even know where it is. Like if you have a kite knife, I think you need to actually bring it out every other session, literally just get it out of the pocket and put it back in. Cause you need to know where to go.
Jack Ho (48:24)
Yeah.
ZU
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (48:50)
If you're in a wave and you tell me on the wave and you know you need to cut it, you're not going to be able to do that if you haven't even touched that thing. β
Jack Ho (48:54)
Totally, yeah. Totally.
But yeah, I mean, just like anything, think, you know, there's unsafe moments in whatever aspect of the ocean you're dealing with. But yeah, I mean, I think with just more practice and a little bit more repetition on the parrowing.
Ideally, I just get more comfortable with it. like, you know, even someone like myself with years of foil experience, I'm still struggling with the parrowing. And just like any aspect of the sport of foiling, it's like all it is is repetition and doing it more often. Every time I do it and every time I use it to go downwind, I feel a little bit more confident or I learn a little bit more about how to deal with the bar, how to fly the thing better. so yeah, I think going back to that advice for people
listening who want to get into it, it's all repetition and putting in that effort for something that you really want and practicing.
Daniel Paronetto (49:51)
Yeah, it's key man. And what you're saying, I think has to do a lot with your, um, your, your spot. Like if you're doing a downwind run, you're going to fly the parrowing for maybe five minutes of your session. If you're doing laps and that's all you're doing in the same spot, you're flying that parrowing for like, you know, 50 % of your session.
Jack Ho (50:08)
And that's, you know, totally
in that session is maybe equivalent to 10 downwind sessions if you're catching 10 waves, you know? So yeah, I think another great thing to point out like for people learning is like, don't put it away as soon as you get up, you know, ride with it and maybe practice stashing the line and then throwing it up again, ride, you know, get some more speed and practice stashing the line again, because you want to be able to, to
be able to execute that when it's time. When conditions are good and all the boys are going, you want to be able to know what you're doing to have fun with everyone else and keep up.
Daniel Paronetto (50:47)
Yeah. And I think one of the best feelings in power winging is a successful redeploy. When you get it out, like you pop it back up and it goes flock and you're like, Oh God. Then you that's when I feel I start to get in the flow of a session after that first little run. Cause I do a lot of laps. live in a Bay and I just stop at a high performing spot. And I do like, I don't know a kilometer run, you know, just go up a one kilometer and then come down. And then when you redeploy and it pops up in your back.
Jack Ho (50:53)
Yeah.
Perfect,
Daniel Paronetto (51:15)
going up to the spa, I'm like, okay, here we go, you know, and then I just do that for two hours. Yeah. Yeah.
Jack Ho (51:17)
And everything just works so good. Yeah, fuck. How good yeah I
think that's another thing that like I haven't really tapped into yet is the upwind downwind I mean, that's a totally β unexplored thing for me just because I'm like, you know I've done it a few times at the hatchery but ideally on a super windy day or Not even a super windy day, but a consistent windy day where there it's not, you know up and down It's a consistent gust β I want to go out here
Daniel Paronetto (51:28)
Mmm.
Jack Ho (51:47)
Diamondhead and just we have this section of tide against swell and it gets just super stacked up blue water and I want to be able to loop that but I think you know comes back to practicing just getting comfortable with that that throw out redeploy and then flying upwind and you know just handling the thing more time more practice and I'm you know I'm looking forward to continuing that practice and I just went to New Jersey last week and took the the parrowing with me
Daniel Paronetto (52:06)
Mm-hmm.
Jack Ho (52:17)
And the wind was 50 knots, you know, like absolutely smoking. Yeah, thanks. It was a fun one. But yeah, the wind was so strong, smoke on the water. And I had my prone board with me because I knew I wanted to ride the prone board, but that's also all I had. I was coming back from Europe, didn't have all my gear. I had this prone board and a 3.5 meter wing.
Daniel Paronetto (52:21)
Man, that was epic. It was bombing. Like the footage was unreal.
Mmm.
Jack Ho (52:47)
And if anyone
knows a three, five and 50 mile per hour gust is freaking crazy. And, but you know, I was able to do it and that alone just taught me so much of how to fly it better and how to handle it better when it's super windy or you need a little more power, less power. And then also like another thing that we haven't talked about yet, but the travel side of the pair wing, it's so much easier than the sup. mean, I take a six foot.
Daniel Paronetto (52:53)
handful.
Hmm.
β yeah.
Jack Ho (53:18)
day bag that you put like a short board in just like for transportation. I just load that with one foil, a wetsuit and the parrowing and it fits all right in there and you're on the plane just carrying a little board bag and you get to go on a foil trip without some sort of eight foot thing with a paddle case and just all this crap, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (53:19)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
It's the
perfect setup for you, man. Like you're a world traveler. go everywhere. And I love like what you're doing with that opportunity that you have to travel and, know, document those vlogs and stuff. Like you've been to hood France. I think you went back to. To Maui for a little bit. can't even remember. And then now you went to New Jersey. Tell us a little bit about like how you're lining those things up. What do you, what's the, like you wake up and you're like, where am I going?
Jack Ho (54:08)
Yeah, yeah. So I think for me, just like anyone, the second you go on a fun surf trip, that bug catches you or you kind of get locked into that drug of dopamine and having fun. And I mean, it's the most powerful drug in the world is just having fun. And I think once you kind of get addicted to that, you're always chasing the next opportunity to kind of get that hit again, you know, in a sense and like.
And granted, it's a very healthy way to do it, but for me, like, it's, I think for me, it's a lot more than just having fun. It's about the trek you have to take to get to that spot. I mean, a lot, it really goes back to my childhood of β loving airplanes. I've absolutely loved airplanes as a kid. And I had this, like,
Daniel Paronetto (54:51)
Mmm.
Right.
Jack Ho (55:06)
infatuation with Hawaiian Airlines planes and Honolulu Fire Department ladder trucks. was like, every kid has their toy car, whatever it is. For me, it was airplanes and fire trucks. a weekend would be spent, β a Saturday morning would be spent at the airport runway just watching the planes take off. So already had this love for aviation that when I started traveling, it just became super fun to...
Daniel Paronetto (55:29)
Hehehe.
Jack Ho (55:34)
be at the airport, being a passenger on an airplane. β So I kind of already liked that side of it. And then when you got to mix that with the surfing and doing what you love, it was just like this complete thing of getting to go fly on airplanes and then go surfing. And I just started doing it and I haven't stopped. And for anyone who's thinking of starting to travel more consistently to foil or surf, like...
Daniel Paronetto (55:39)
Mmm.
Jack Ho (56:03)
I'm sorry, but it's never gonna, that need is never gonna go away. It's like forever you're gonna be cursed with this strike mission sensation of just wanting it and wanting to have fun. I'm sorry, I just got so off topic there, but to answer your question.
Daniel Paronetto (56:07)
Yeah.
Nah, dude, it's it, it just says, cause I
think we all, I think we all have our like our phases in life. I guess, you know, I've had my down winding phase that that got me pumped to get out of the water. Like I need to learn this, but like, if, if you get motivation from like searching online, what's pumping right now, where in the world can I go and explore something new, dude, ride with it. And you are like, you're doing like, you're, you're living an amazing life.
Meeting new people everywhere, getting to experience conditions that very few people experience. Like the video from New Jersey, I'll link it up in the description so people could check it out. Like it was awesome, dude. Like, you know, the New York background, you're like fully suited up. It's freezing and it was just fiery. Like people don't get to experience that. Like people, don't even know that was a thing in New Jersey, dude.
Jack Ho (57:00)
Thank you
Yeah, yeah, I was stoked.
Yeah, I mean, like those moments are what I think keeps me coming back because, you know, how it works is I have this mental map in my mind of the world and all these different spots that I've been to and I kind of correlate them with the different seasons, you know, whether it's summer, winter, spring or fall. And based on those seasons, I kind of have an idea of these places that
maybe are generally more consistent or get a lot of swell during those months and, or even places where there's just good weather and good weather patterns. So I kind of have that map in my mind and I think a lot of the travel depends on what the time of year is. And, you know, first off, I start off at home, like, is there waves at home this week and, or this month or like in the near future and are the conditions at home going to be good? Because that takes...
priority over everything else, know, surfing good waves at home is the best. And then secondly, if you know, if there's no good waves at home and you, I see an opportunity to go travel to score waves, whether it's to make a β cool YouTube video or to connect with an old friend who I haven't seen in a while who lives in this place, whatever it is, if there's solid reason to do it, I'm going to go and find a book of flight and
Daniel Paronetto (58:28)
Mmm.
Jack Ho (58:35)
pack up all my stuff and get my gear ready to go chase that adventure. And it just so happened that New Jersey one, I've been trying to, know, the local community of New Jersey foil club foilers who, there's 10 of them. And the 10 of them there had been telling me like, there's this run and it gets really good showing me photos. And so I've known about this run for the past year and I've seen videos and then I was coming back from Europe.
Daniel Paronetto (58:49)
Amazing.
Jack Ho (59:03)
And this is kind of like an example of always being ready to go and ready to act on something because I was coming back from a month in Europe. I went to California for a few meetings. β And after that was done, my work was done. I was ready to go home. And my buddy Ed, Ed Ginkwit of the New Jersey Foil Club, if anyone wants to go foil there, he's the guy to reach to hit up.
Daniel Paronetto (59:07)
Mm.
Jack Ho (59:31)
And he told me it's gonna be good and I had the parrowing in my bag and I didn't have β that board behind me. I only had my prone board and β I didn't even have a thick enough wetsuit. Thankfully I was able to get all these things before the day and I hopped in the red-eye to New York, met my friend Kainoa there to film this whole thing and we were able to bring it to life. And I think it was because...
Daniel Paronetto (59:35)
Hmm.
Jack Ho (59:57)
there was an opportunity that was given to me and I took that opportunity. It would have been easy to just say, β I'll catch you next time. Like it's been a long month. I'm trying to go home, but you know, I saw some value in possibly getting a shot like that in a place that no one else has kind of documented it before. And the ultimate goal with it is to show that wherever you are in the world, wherever there's water or wind, there's an opportunity to foil. And β I think
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:03)
Mmm.
Jack Ho (1:00:26)
My travels in the past year have really been focused around how can I maximize my fun. And if you're a surfer, and this goes into I guess the next topic, but if you're a surfer and you are counting on your Indo boat trip to give you your surf trip for the year or you're counting on maybe striking a swell somewhere, there's a lot of factors that have to add up to make it.
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:33)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jack Ho (1:00:55)
a successful
trip, know, and especially places like Indonesia or lot of these good surf destinations are so far away. But being able to adjust that mindset of using the gear you have, which is the foil or the parrowing, whatever it is, and understanding that you can go on a surf trip that's not a traditional surf trip, but like a strike mission to New Jersey, that's still a surf trip because you're, you know, you're surfing, you're having fun. And like ultimately, maybe you're even getting more.
Daniel Paronetto (1:01:14)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Jack Ho (1:01:23)
enjoyment out of that as you would being in Indonesia with a crowded lineup full of good surfers. So adjusting that mindset of like, can I go with the foil to get just, you know, get that fix of riding waves is, my main goal. I'm trying to show that through the videos I post, those stuff I share is that, you know, you don't have to live in some perfect tropical destination to, you know, surf or score. You can live anywhere. And as long as you
Daniel Paronetto (1:01:29)
Yeah.
Mm.
Jack Ho (1:01:53)
have the right gear to utilize what's in your backyard or what's close to you or accessible to you, then you can go have a good time.
Daniel Paronetto (1:02:01)
I love it that man. It's, it's, think one of the things that foiling taught me was just to, have an open mind. remember when, you know, winging first came out, I was shitting on it. I'm like, that sucks. And then I started doing it and that's all I did for a year. β you know, like, so it taught me how to bite my tongue and just be, β just open minded about opportunities. And I think that's what you have naturally in you. You're like, I'll do anything, man. I can, I'd like you have.
Jack Ho (1:02:13)
Yep. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:02:29)
personal drive and a, and a person, personal, just like creativity that I really admire. it's, β keep doing like, love, I love the videos. love the vlog style. It's a different, I think it's hard to pull that off. Honestly, I don't think any, like a lot of people can do that style of video because you have to have a storyline. You know, I had, had a video background before changing careers and.
I know how hard it is to put a video together and make it like, okay, I want to hang on to this and watch it. And I watch your stuff all the time and it's really good. β yeah, keep, keep doing it. It's, it's sick, man. It's sick.
Jack Ho (1:03:01)
Thanks so much.
β That's the best compliment and I appreciate that. I think really I just love doing it. I love that excitement of going somewhere that maybe you don't know if it's gonna be good or not or if it's this hunt, this chase. And then when you get the reward like how we did in that video, excellent.
conditions, that's just a cherry on top and that kind of validates all the effort and work that you put into getting to that location to pull that off. then when you get to document it and share it to be able to watch it back and kind of relive that moment.
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:35)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Jack Ho (1:03:42)
with
your friends or whoever you did that with, that's a really special thing. For me, I watch a lot of YouTube. Every night before bed, I watch YouTube and I watch all my friends who post, who I subscribe to. Even the people I don't subscribe to, β I watch a variety of different videos, whether it's surfing or foiling. From all of those β videos and the content that I consume, I kind of get this idea of how I want to tell my story through editing.
I take a little bit of inspiration from everyone's kind of channel because everyone does it differently. Everyone who vlogs has a different style of linking the talking and surfing together and whatever it is. β But yeah, I'm pulling a lot of inspiration from just watching a lot of long form content. And so I think β going on to my next thing that I'm excited about. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:04:18)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Jack Ho (1:04:38)
My buddy and I are releasing our first movie. We're aiming for February 26th and I haven't announced it yet. This is, guess, the first time I'm announcing it publicly. But I'm making a movie with everything that happened in 2025 and all the cool places that we traveled to this year. I'm going to put them together and try to tell this story about
Daniel Paronetto (1:04:44)
Yeah.
Jack Ho (1:05:04)
all the things that I found important to me this year. Whether it's inside jokes with your friends or certain places or foods, cultures, whatever that I felt was important to me that kind of marked my 20, 25, 20 year old identity this year. I'm gonna put that into this movie that we're starting to piece together. so I think that's my next.
project and something I'm super excited about and I think this movie is going to show the narrative that I want to show is that a surf trip is everywhere and like this is what I'm doing in a way is my version of a modern free surf style of surf tripping.
Daniel Paronetto (1:05:37)
Mmm.
Yeah, sick.
Jack Ho (1:05:46)
And β
so yeah, that's something I'm excited for and I'm gonna hopefully just keep giving more updates as we make it, but we're still in the very early phase of editing. We filmed everything, but now we gotta piece it together, which is the hardest part.
Daniel Paronetto (1:06:00)
It's the hardest part, man. But I think like you're good. You're a good storyteller. So when you look back at those things, like you'll take the nuggets out of whatever trip it was, and that'll be a storyline. And I think one of the things that I find a lot of value in is when people document their experience and their learnings and whatever it is that they live through, be it a weekend, a year, whatever.
And helps you in your life in whatever way it could be inspirational. could be technique. could be just like your growth as a human, you know, like there's so many things that, β we can learn from each other. So. Man, I'm going to be, yeah, I'll get the popcorn out for that one.
Jack Ho (1:06:43)
Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I'm excited. And I think for me, I'm excited to share something that's 100 % mine. β This movie, there's no sponsor support behind it. Everything's authentic. Everything is gonna be exactly how Kainoa and I, Kainoa being my friend who's hopped on the fun tour with me this year and traveled and filmed the whole year. But I think it's really a reflection of...
Daniel Paronetto (1:06:55)
Hmm.
Jack Ho (1:07:10)
our young adult lives that we've just entered in this new phase of no longer being in high school and being teenagers and kind of making our own decisions as we age into our 20s. I think it's gonna be, yeah, I think it's just like a cool thing to represent. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:07:23)
β you get an old Jack aging into your twenties.
Jack Ho (1:07:30)
this era of my life and I'm really excited to make it and hopefully one day where we're old and gray and we're looking back and can watch this video and be reminded of that awesome run we had when we were younger.
Daniel Paronetto (1:07:32)
Yeah.
Dude, that's sick.
love, I love having people that are driven around me in, my sphere that I can just draw a little bit of drive for myself. There's time that you need to pick yourself up. And I like to like my feed when you're like looking at people, you follow stuff or just people that like I watch and I'm like, β see, that's the drive I need. Like let's, let's pick me up again. And you're definitely in in the top end of that man. So yeah, it's going to be cool. I'll, β
Jack Ho (1:08:11)
well.
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:12)
Whenever that comes out, I'll link this back up in the description as well. It's going to be a retrospective thing, but if people watch this podcast a little bit later, it'll, β it'll be here, but, in one of those videos, and I think I saw it a few times. saw it in hood. saw it in. I think the Jersey one, if I'm not mistaken, I saw an interesting accessory that you had on that I hadn't seen before. β
Jack Ho (1:08:19)
Yeah, right on.
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:38)
for parowinging and I experiment a lot. have so many like prototypes of stuff that I get my wife to sew for me, poor thing. β and, totally, man, I'm, I'm doing minimal viable products every day. And, I, I like that vest idea. where did that come from? Like, is that something you just stitched together yourself or is that what, what is that?
Jack Ho (1:08:46)
MVP right there.
Thank your wives. Everyone. That's like the, yeah.
Yeah, so been fortunate enough this year to work with Patagonia closely to create any accessories that come to mind for better everyday use in the water, whether it's for surfing or foiling. At β Patagonia, they have this incredible team that basically creates by hand and anything you want to happen can come true by just sending an email and having a cool idea because they're incredibly creative people and when you bring creativity to the table, everyone kind of...
feeds off that excitement to create new things. And that vest kind of came from this idea of, I went to Hood River originally, learned the parrowing, and then I just remember that β the waist belt kind of being in the way a little bit, I just, you know, I wasn't used to wearing a belt surfing ever. So it was great. I like the waist belt, but I wanted another option where it was a little bit more.
just like nothing on your body. And β I had this idea of the backstache and β I was on FaceTime one day with one of the designers and I'm in my living room like pretending that I'm pumping and my phone's on the wall. And I was like, okay, I wanna like put it behind here then like once I get it in there, like not touch it and then just ride and like have this like thin material vest that I can just take on and off. you know, a week later this.
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:04)
Hmm.
Jack Ho (1:10:30)
thing shows up at my door in this box. They made this β vest and took it to Hood River that week because there was a day of wind and I was like, really want to try this thing. Flew to Hood River to go try it for the first time. It worked out perfectly. And yeah, I was blown away by how well it worked out. β I think, know, continuing to get those accessories and kind of
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:31)
How good.
Mm.
Jack Ho (1:10:59)
Experiment with what works the best is is so exciting, but like I'm not closed-minded to just that β you know in New Jersey I I did one run with the backstache And I kept hitting fish and I kept falling and I would have to take it out of my back and get it back up and in that situation It wasn't really β the best most efficient solution where the waist belt came in way handier on the second run when I β was able to have it right there, and if I
Daniel Paronetto (1:11:03)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Jack Ho (1:11:29)
fell
I would just pull it out and put it back up. So I think depending on the situation that you're in or the type of riding you want to do, having all these different accessories is important.
Daniel Paronetto (1:11:40)
Yeah, a hundred percent. have like probably three or four different concepts I'm working on one for down winning one for waves. β another one just for laps and I need different things in all of those situations for, for power winging. want like a quick thing that I can get in and out of, or I want something that I I'm going to put away. I'm not going to see it anymore. And I think the, you know, having the backstache is cool. think people might be a little bit, β
Jack Ho (1:12:00)
Absolutely.
Daniel Paronetto (1:12:09)
put off by having to stow it behind you. But once you pack the pair of wing properly and you have it in your hand, putting in your back and having like a turtle back is not really hard. can just, it's actually quite easy just to chuck it in there. You don't have to spin it around. Yeah. I like where you're going with it.
Jack Ho (1:12:22)
It's pretty, yeah, it's really easy. yeah, I never really,
yeah, I never really found any hassle to that. you know.
Just keep evolving, keep trying to one up what you did previously and try to make whatever that is better, whether it's your foiling, your design, your accessories, your, know, whatever you're doing, as long as you continue to get better at it, that's growth, that's improvement. And I think for me, that's the number one thing that I chase and fun. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:12:52)
Dude, that's awesome, man. It's,
I thought this chat was going to go this way. Um, cause I've heard you, you know, in the progression podcast, I've heard you before. Um, and I was like, Oh, I need to speak with this guy, man. Cause now he's into parowinging and obviously I, that's all I do like 90 % of the time on the parowing these days. But, um, dude, I like, do you have anything else you want to share with us? This is your time. I think we spoke a lot about what's up next for you. I'm really stoked about this movie coming up.
But β what's your next strike mission, man? What are you eyeballing?
Jack Ho (1:13:26)
Yeah, well, yeah, thanks so much again for having me on the show, Dan, and thanks to everyone for listening. β You know, without anyone listening, there wouldn't be a show, so it's the viewers who make it. I think next for me, you know, we're heading into winter time, a lot of β keeping my eye on Japan for snowboard strike missions, something that I love to do recreationally.
And then surfing at home, course, you know, the winter time on O'ahu in Hawaii is just so good. But, you know, as those seasons change, different places become good. I'm excited to also get some surfing and foiling in while I'm in Japan. You know, just a cool, different place during the winter time. And yeah, really the next few months is kind of this unknown up in the air. I mean, I live my life week by week and try not to get too ahead of myself.
Daniel Paronetto (1:14:08)
Yeah.
Jack Ho (1:14:22)
I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of fun to be had and I think to leave off everyone with one thing it would be, β I think the most important thing in what I do is having fun and chasing that fun and foiling brings that, if surfing brings it, whatever it is, just keep seeking that sense of enjoyment and the second it's not fun then stop doing it because it's not meant to be.
Daniel Paronetto (1:14:48)
That's it, man.
We'll take the Parawing in that snow trip. saw a few people doing some cool things on a snowboard with the Parawing. If it's blowing, you never know what could happen.
Jack Ho (1:14:59)
Yeah, no,
such an easy stash for travel too. It's perfect. Right on.
Daniel Paronetto (1:15:02)
Yeah. But dude,
I, yeah, like I, I think you need to know this as well. Like, I think when you look at foilers, you know, people who serve might have a reference, people who downwind might have a reference, but I think you be, you became now a reference for people in any industry and in any discipline. Sorry. β you know, everybody that foils can look at your stuff, your content and resonate with it because you do everything.
You do everything really well. I think, you know, your drive, your creativity and your humbleness is yeah, unmatched. So keep doing what you're doing, bro. β really enjoy your stuff. I know you want to be a firefighter. You told me that when we were trading before, β
Jack Ho (1:15:41)
off.
Yeah, that's my, yeah,
one day if, you know, if surfing and if this life ever comes to a pause in a different way or, you know, careers change and, you know, I always thought firefighters were superheroes and they still are. So one day maybe, but yeah. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:16:07)
I think, β a little bit
further down the track, you have a lot of foiling to do, but I'm 42. I'm a firefighter and I'm a foiler. That's all I do. And it's the best life ever. You have time. You have a job that's purposeful. You're working with people that become brothers because you go through intense stuff every day. And yeah, it's, and then you get to just zone out and relax.
Jack Ho (1:16:11)
Yeah.
no way.
β yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (1:16:35)
foiling because you do have a lot of time as a firefighter as well so yeah not a bad one to keep in the back pocket man.
Jack Ho (1:16:38)
Yeah. Well, that's the life right there. And yeah,
thanks again, Dan, for having me. And I guess to end it off, thank you to the people who support me. mean, you know, the friends, the family, the foiling communities, you know, to someone on Instagram who watches my videos, to sponsors, whoever it is, you know, there's this incredible amount of support and kindness and camaraderie within this foil community that's...
you don't find anywhere else in the world. You'll certainly not find it in surfing. And I think β to everyone who's a part of it, thanks for being a part of my life and allowing me to do what I do. So stoked to be on the show. Thanks Dan for having me. And β until next time,
Daniel Paronetto (1:17:16)
awesome in.
Yeah, I
