Daniel Paronetto (01:24)
Welcome to the Lab Rat Foiler podcast. My name is Dan and today we have the head of R &D at Ozone, Dom Zimmerman.
and Axel Mazella, part of team as well. Welcome, boys. I'm excited about this one.
Dom (01:40)
hello again. Good to be back here.
Daniel Paronetto (01:43)
is an exciting one for myself. I'm pumped. I had a coffee and I've been thinking about this pair of wing for a long time. We're gonna be talking about the Pocket Rocket V2, which is now in the market and we're recording this a few days or weeks. I'm not even sure when it's coming out, but I'm excited about this guys because the pack came out and it had so many interesting β features to it. A lot of things with
just parrowing ergonomics that I like to call it now that are really a big step forward. So I really wanna start maybe just by giving us a little bit of a, a historical playback of what happened like after the Power Pack was launched and all the feedback came in from the new features on the Power Pack. How has that influenced the design of the Pocket Rocket V2?
Dom (02:30)
Thank
Well, yeah, pretty much quite a lot, obviously, because those features that we came up on on PowerPack, they were quite essential for the design of the pocket rocket as well. And it's kind of, you know, into the next level now paired with the performance of a pocket rocket,
They obviously, some features are a little different to the Power Pack, such as the line and the angles and the, you know, there's junctions in the lines now on the pocket rocket due to the amount of ribs that we are supporting and we're having. β But it's very much inspired by the Power Pack, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (03:31)
I'm happy to hear that because when I first received the power pack, I started just noticing little things and then I started just running my lines through the A lines and I noticed the bridling system, which was like, wow, okay. You really thought about how people are using this. mean, we never had a product in the market that we actually had to touch and interact with so much. So I think β for me, I like to think about as a designing exercise like.
what were the topics and the features in the V1 that you guys knew that you wanted to improve for the V2 of the Pocket Rocket.
Dom (04:08)
Well, the most obvious was β the line length that needed to become shorter, like most people were β having problems stashing the, or pulling the lines in one go, especially on the big sizes. At the same time, so obviously now on the V2, we brought that down to a decent length. So all sizes are pretty much in an arm reach.
Daniel Paronetto (04:12)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (04:35)
from the 5'7", it depends how long your arms are, but for us it's still doable and we are like around 180-185. β So it's there, but it needs a certain length still to support the canopy properly and it's a lot of material there, a lot of span.
Daniel Paronetto (04:41)
Hehehe
Axel (04:56)
And it's also β size dependent because, for example, as Dom said, the big sizes got harmlands prices. But the small sizes, we found out that if we go too short, the powering start to be too crazy. So we've done the other side that we extend a little bit. So we are still in the harmlands, but a little bit.
Dom (04:57)
Yes.
Daniel Paronetto (05:08)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Axel (05:23)
longer to make them more stable.
Daniel Paronetto (05:27)
Yeah, that's interesting because not many people mentioned that, but the smaller sizes, because of the size, but also because of the proximity to your body, get a lot of, is it just turbulence that you get from being too close to you?
Dom (05:41)
From everything, β it's the wind first of all, that's pretty strong and then it goes over, you know, wavy waters. It makes it swirly. The stronger winds are usually a bit more gusty in general. And then you as a person in front of it as well. So it kind of all adds up, those aspects here. So having the powering rather away from you helps tame it down a bit because it's already very fast and hectic.
Axel (05:41)
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (05:43)
Hmm.
Yeah, interesting.
Dom (06:11)
On the other side, think another important point was the line material itself. We're now using the stiffer material that we introduced on the power pack. And that's now throughout on the pocket rocket, on the front and on the back lines. So a bit thicker, a bit stiffer mainly, so there's pretty much no chance of getting them tangled anymore.
Daniel Paronetto (06:18)
Mm-hmm.
Beautiful. I w we're going to touch on all these β aspects and features of the, the powering individually. I want to also help the viewers understand like what style of para winger does this V2 really suit? Is it, you know, the all arounder is the person really wanting to go up when what are you guys aiming to β cater for with this one?
Dom (07:04)
The Pocket Rocket stays pretty much in the segment it was released on the V1 for, so it's kind of the all-rounder. β It does it all. If you aren't sure which way you want to be going or you are going, β it's the one to pick. It pretty much does it all. It shoots upwind. It's a really good upwind now. I'd say at least the same as the V1.
Daniel Paronetto (07:12)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (07:33)
even though we reduced the numbers of cells, we reduced the aspect ratio to make it bit more compact and a bit easier to fly, which also on the other side helps the low end quite a lot. So the low end has improved massively on it. But yes, it's from beginners to the high end rider, it serves it all really.
Daniel Paronetto (07:37)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Awesome. Well, I have a few, photos here that we're going to be putting an overlay on top of the next few topics that we're going to talk about, but let's start from the bottom up. start with the bar system and work our way up the lines and the canopy. well, starting with the bar, Axel or Dom, feel free to jump in this one, but, β what were the biggest changes that you guys introduced to the bar system?
Axel (08:30)
β On the bar, the main changes are β that we are going for two balance. So the big sizes, until the 3.6, are going for 36 centimeters. And then the small sizes, so from the 3, 2.4, and 1.9, are using 33 centimeters. β Mainly because the steering is good enough. We don't need something longer compared to the V1.
Daniel Paronetto (08:51)
Nice.
Mm-hmm.
Axel (08:59)
And it makes the stashability even better as soon as it's into your stash harness. That's way smaller. β So yeah, that's mainly what happens on the bar. Also, the bar hand are also a bit different. It's, it irritates from the power pack. So the riser line, the A and the Ks are going directly through the bar hand to get more
Daniel Paronetto (09:28)
Mm-hmm.
Axel (09:29)
The direct feeling without having the little leader line like the V1 just make the feelings more direct.
Daniel Paronetto (09:34)
Yeah, nice.
Awesome with the β
Dom (09:39)
And obviously the
main feature, I think, know, it's kind of, of course for us, it's kind of now given is using the bow line. So there's no more middle line on the bar like it is on the V1. You basically got free hand movement along the bar, just like the power pack got introduced with the bow line. It's the same, a similar bar on the Pocket Rocket now.
Daniel Paronetto (09:48)
Yes.
What's, β what, kind of difference in the feel of the parrowing does this bow system introduce? Because I felt a big difference when I was, β testing the, power pack for the first time. It was almost as if your movements on the bar were amplified, like not amplified, but you had more to play with before you actually stalled the parrowing. And I felt like.
Dom (10:28)
Hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (10:32)
previous versions or just other pair of wings with the three points of attachment, they were very quick to reach that point of stalling the parrowing. So it's almost like you could sheet in and sheet out and feel that difference in the parrowing a little bit more. Am I completely like crazy here or is that kind of like what it does?
Dom (10:50)
Yeah, no, no, that's correct. Yeah, that's what this system does. So it changes the angle of attack more in a ratio of the wing and it's way more progressive. So yes, what you feel as a rider is you're not having that on off feeling as you described it, because when you depower it's kind of it's all off while on the new bow bar. It's kind of a bit more progressive. And the same goes with if you
Daniel Paronetto (10:59)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (11:19)
putting power on and you've got a way later stall point and you feel the progressive of the power increase and of the pull coming from your wing.
Daniel Paronetto (11:20)
Mm-hmm.
Axel (11:31)
And I
think it also helps us to keep tension into the canopy when we sheet out. before on the V1, we were not really able to sheet out and keep steering the power wing. Right now with the bow line, this is possible. So you still have more control into the canopy when you sheet out and for steering in the iron wrench. Or for tax, for example.
Daniel Paronetto (11:40)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Nice. It makes total
sense. Yeah. It makes total sense to, because I, I still, and I see footage of, you know, drone footage where an overpowered days, you know, the pocket rocket just like flapping because you are fully sheeted out. But with the power pack, it's almost like it's, maintains its shape. You are sheeted out, but there's, β you still have a little bit of the steering, which you need, β to do tax and tricks like that. That's a really interesting point. and with the.
Dom (12:00)
Mm.
Mm.
And the big flap,
just coming back to that quickly, the big flap is always creating a lot of drag. So it's almost annoying and contraproductive having that big flap. So the cleaner the surface can stay, the more efficient the deep hole will be.
Daniel Paronetto (12:41)
Yeah, lovely. β When I think about a bar system as well, I also think about connection points to harness. β Is the harness line connection still the same, that one point connection system that Ozone has with a couple of different sizes, or was anything changed on that regard as well?
Dom (13:03)
Yeah, it's still the same principle, but β we reworked the harness line, the fixed loop harness line. It's now got rid of the Velcro that goes over it to secure it. It's now a self-locking system. So it's just a loop through, very low profile. you can easily run your hand over it and hold it super smooth. That's just been released as well a few days ago. And it's now available.
Daniel Paronetto (13:17)
are.
Hmm.
Yeah, nice.
Dom (13:31)
Highly recommended, it's a very nice cleaner system now with less clutter on it. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (13:38)
Yeah, well, I wrote
for a whole year without a harness line. just because I...
Dom (13:43)
I remember last
time we spoke, were like, no, I'm writing without it. And now in the last videos, I spotted you finally came to the dark side. They're going to shrink now.
Daniel Paronetto (13:51)
Yeah, yeah. I have some Popeye hands though now. I grew my muscles in my arms, but it was, yeah, they're gonna lose
a little bit, but it was hard to find something that I liked, to be honest. And that's the reason why. And I think there's a balance of being malleable, but also being rigid because like coming from a kiting background, I liked, if I'm gonna hook in, I wanna hook in like a chicken loop where.
Dom (14:05)
Mmm.
Daniel Paronetto (14:19)
I don't want to look down, you know, if it's, and I used to use just a Dyneema line β because that's low profile so that there's an advantage there. But as soon as I wanted to hook in, I needed two hands and I was like, β I'm not doing this. β So I decided not to use it. And then you guys sent me a few like, yeah, give it a try. Maybe you'll change your mind. β And I used that one point connection system and I, yeah, now it's.
Dom (14:24)
Mm.
Daniel Paronetto (14:44)
pretty much impossible to not use it to the point where I need to get some more because I want to put them on all the pair wings. So I don't have to change when I'm going from a three to a, you know, a four or a four, three. I don't want to change it on the bar. just want to have all the bars with that on already. β so that's something that for me kind of was a big, big game changer. and, I think it improves, you know, not only fatigue, β which, you know,
Dom (14:55)
Mm.
Daniel Paronetto (15:11)
over the course of a year, I kind of overcame, but just your posture and your upwind angles, the ability to β just feel and fine tune the trimming of the para wing when you're really overpowered and going fast, you just get more sensibility that way. So it took me a little while, but I came around,
Dom (15:31)
Good, finally. I'm happy to
hear that. And yeah, you're totally right. you know, I think anyone who is para-winging should be looking into harness system one way or the other. And as I said, we designed the fixed harness loop, which is quite stiff. So as you said, it's easy to hook in and out without having to look or guide it into the hook. There's some more versions coming that we're working on right now.
Daniel Paronetto (15:44)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (16:00)
There will be a two point system out of the same style and another one that we're working on right now. So there's something to choose for everyone. It depends on which system you prefer. If you like it to be stiff or a bit more floppy and easier to store away.
Daniel Paronetto (16:04)
Mm-hmm.
yeah. Nice.
we, know that the, one of the biggest, one of the weak points, let's say, β of the V1 was the, the line length and the, just the, the type of line, β that I don't even know exactly what type of line it was, but it was, β it was really prone to, little tango, especially on the redeploy.
I would notice a lot those tangles on the B's and the C's where they would just kind of make a little knot and no matter what you did, it would be very hard to undo that knot. So for the V2, β what type of lines are you guys using for that? And just let's talk about the differences about the V1 and the V2.
Dom (18:53)
Mm.
So yeah, we changed β to a new line that we worked on with our suppliers, where we apply a special coating. And the lines is quite a major thing for us, as already for the V1, we tried a lot of different lines, a lot of other brands using sheathed lines, and then they stitched the loops, and that was like a no-go for us. So we wanted something that is running smoothly through your hands.
Daniel Paronetto (19:33)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (19:42)
which is already the case on the V1, but yes, the line wasn't really stiff enough. So that's why they got easily tangled and created little loops and stuff, especially when you were pumping and the lines were kind of dangling around. Now with that new line that we started introducing on the PowerPack, the coating is, we worked hard on that with our suppliers and it's now way smoother running through your hands.
It's kind of slidey and at the same time the line is quite stiff so that makes it hard to create those little loops and knots at the end. And now it's pretty much that problem I would say is solved while still having an unsheathed line that runs very smooth through your hands with no knots and no stitches that can...
Daniel Paronetto (20:13)
Mm-hmm.
Nice.
Mm.
Dom (20:39)
penetrate your skin when you're sliding up your hands.
Daniel Paronetto (20:43)
Yeah, I think that's huge. And there are not that many β brands out there that are focusing so much on that part of the pair wing as ozone is. I'm really so happy about that because when you're out in a session and you're doing laps and you're stowing multiple times in a session, I mean, the difference of having something like that and not having it is massive. Not only the not having any knots, but I think the thickness of the line is quite important. There were pair wings that I use that.
Dom (21:10)
Mm.
Daniel Paronetto (21:13)
first time I stowed, just did my regular stow and ran my hands and it was like, actually burnt skin through like it, because it was so thin. β and I think it's a little bit counterintuitive to put thick lines on a kite because you're like, performance, want thin lines and you know, that's going to be better. But we interact with those lines way too much for them to be, you know, below a certain thickness. and I think the, what you did with the
Dom (21:19)
And yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (21:41)
You guys did with the power pack was amazing because you could use that pair of wing for the whole day, not get any abrasion and β not have any points that were like, you know, causing any damage to your hand. β and I think that's going to continue to grow. you know, I think we're also talking about ways that we can, β come towards the leading edge and grab more of the leading edge.
to make stows easier and things like that. does the pocket rocket compare to the power pack when it comes to that stowing element and running your hands through the lines and having the leading edge in a certain way for you to then proceed with the full stow? Is it just as easy as the power pack or it's a little bit bigger? What should we expect?
Dom (22:29)
It's.
There's more structure, there's more cells, there's more ribs and everything on the pocket rocket over the power pack. So the reason why the power pack is so easy, there's just very little leading edge to gather together. So every rib and every cell β means material and more stuff to get together. So on the pocket rocket, there's just more...
Daniel Paronetto (22:45)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Dom (23:03)
more support, so there's more ribs which adds to the bundle basically to your leading edge but it's still super easy and compared to the V1 it's way easier because it's easier to reach and then it's also easier to gather the leading edge together.
Daniel Paronetto (23:05)
Mm-hmm.
What I found, and this is something that β didn't come from me, but from multiple people that I've been riding with and we all share little hacks and stuff like that. We are in the power pack. β We're choosing to, you know how the A lines are divided into maybe the front A's and the backwards A's that they go to different parts of the leading edge. We're choosing to use only the front A's because you get
Dom (23:42)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (23:50)
Closer to the leading edge rather than collecting all the A's That is already separated which is a huge benefit You know, it's a tactile thing where you can just touch the lines and you know where you are at β Where I started doing a little bit of something I did in the past where I did the front a lines the four middle ones I used to do a little β electrical tape don't have to do that anymore
Dom (24:10)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (24:15)
But now I do a little electrical tape between the front and the rear A's and that has helped me to shave a little bit off my stowing time because you get to that leading edge a little bit easier. So is the bridling system in the Pocket Rocket similar with that, you know, outer A's separate from the inner A's and then you have front and rear A's as well?
Dom (24:43)
Yes, it's pretty much the same layout and as you said we do have the same center A's. What makes the packing a bit more comfortable on the Pocket Rocket is that the front and the back A's as you're calling them are easier to come together because there's no reinforcement along the rib that kind of spreads them apart.
Daniel Paronetto (24:46)
Mm-hmm.
Yep, nice.
Dom (25:12)
That's probably one of the advantages of the Pocket Rocket now over the Power Pack, actually.
Daniel Paronetto (25:17)
Nice. Yeah. And it's look, those things are like, they're small details, but those are the things that make, you know, that quick decision-making time and just feeling the pair of wing, not having to look at the pair of wing while you're doing a downwind or something like that. It does make a big difference. β especially when you, you're using something like that and then you move to a pair of wing that doesn't have it. You almost feel lost in the beginning. β and I ride, you know, a bunch of pair of wings all the time and
Dom (25:22)
Hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (25:46)
When I jump into something else, I'm always having to recalibrate and say, okay, this is where we're at. put my little electrical tape where it needs to go and I know where to put my hand. So, β I really like that you guys are focusing on these, this paro economic side of things. And I think it's, just going to continue to get better and better, man. That's awesome.
Dom (25:54)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (26:06)
With the β Brado configuration, so we spoke about this already, it's going to follow very much the same principle as the Power Pack with how the A lines are separated from the external A's, middle A's, anything else in the B's and C's that are different or any features there that we should know about. And this could be anything from performance or just β even color schemes on the lines. Are those maintained? Nothing changed there.
Dom (26:37)
That's stayed the same, Still got the running the red ones on the front and the black ones on the back and then the blues on the middle. I think one thing to mention, and because a lot of people don't necessarily know it, but I don't know if you experience it, if you are riding in very light winds and you are chibing and you're trying to change directions on the wing, you know how it can be sometimes not enough to just use the bar.
Daniel Paronetto (27:02)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (27:07)
you're not
getting enough steering input and if you're looking at and that's been since the beginning our bridle layout on the back lines that go to the trailing edge there's a separated outer line basically if you want so and where you can just pull the tip and that kind of spins the the wing around in very light winds it's quite a handful helpful technique to
Daniel Paronetto (27:10)
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Dom (27:35)
to do your jibes in the light wing to just pull that inner tip in with one of the brake lines.
Daniel Paronetto (27:42)
Okay. So I need to have a look at the photos and I'll check out in that catalog to see if I can find a photo of that because in, in, know, talking to beginners and people who write in, you know, 15 knots or whatever, I always try to teach them the C line. Jive is what we call it where, you know, you place your hand on the insides.
Dom (27:56)
Mm.
Daniel Paronetto (28:05)
external C line. So the C line that you want to turn into and you basically pull the bar up and you push the line down and you cause the power wing to pivot. Yeah.
Dom (28:14)
That's the one. That's
Axel (28:16)
Yeah, that's exactly the same, but
Dom (28:17)
the one, yeah. And not all.
Axel (28:20)
you're taking the break instead of the C. So you're have more rep.
Daniel Paronetto (28:23)
Okay, interesting.
Dom (28:24)
Well, I think for
Dan, you're talking the sea lines for you are the break lines, it? It's the back lines. Okay. For us. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (28:29)
I could, I, I, for me it's ABC, but yeah, there's ABC and then there's another one, the black. Yes.
Axel (28:30)
Yes.
The black
line. So we are talking about the same thing, but different.
Daniel Paronetto (28:39)
Because the B,
we are, but the B lines, you're right. There are two, two B lines. So A, B, C. and then the last one's being D. β but yeah, I think, β that's, that's β a very easy way to, to help the pair owing pivot on its, β on itself. And so you can just get out of that jive as quickly as possible. And when it's not that really strong winds,
Dom (28:41)
Yeah, different names.
Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
Daniel Paronetto (30:00)
Well, cool. Look, let's move on to the shape of the pair wing because this is a big one for me. one of the reasons why I still ride the, the, the pocket rockets is because I can go up wind better than probably anything else. tried out there and not only that it's the speed that you are, that it allows you to ride it.
So one of the things that I noticed when I tried the power pack was like, look, it goes up wind, okay. You know, it's not as good, but it's fine. But the speed that you ride with the power pack is too slow for me. Cause I got used to riding fast with the, with the pocket rocket. So with the V2, β tell us a little bit about how the shape of the pair wing has changed. You said there's a little bit more of a lower aspect to it than compared to the V1s.
Dom (30:39)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (30:54)
β but what does that reflect in the riding, β speed and sensation compared to the V ones? Cause that's a big one for me.
Dom (31:04)
Yeah, for us it was, and as you said, there's a big difference between the Pocket Rocket and the Power Pack, and we didn't want to lose that attribute of the Pocket Rocket, which is the speed and the angle up wind. And we kept this by using a bit more performance profile. So we're shooting up wind very well on it.
Daniel Paronetto (31:25)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (31:32)
At the same time as we increase the bottom end range. So, you know, for you, it's kind of, it fits perfectly where you want it, but you're just having less of a handful of a wing, like, you know, the aspect ratio and so on. So the handling is easier and just everything becomes way easier with it, with the V2, because it's a bit more compact and the bottom end has increased massively.
Daniel Paronetto (31:42)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's, that's definitely helpful because even though the pop-up techniques in low winds, β with the V ones, had to really go at a, like an acute angle crosswind. Cause if you went too far down when you would lose a lot of that, β bottom end grunts. but look, better bottom end I think is, is great because I felt like the top end was, you know,
Dom (32:07)
Mm.
Daniel Paronetto (32:27)
As good as I wanted it like I didn't need to go any faster. didn't feel like I needed more top-end I think what it would give us is possibly a little bit more wind range if you had more but it's not like I what I wanted out of my β Pocket rocket was a little bit more low. So that's not necessarily a bad thing if it still rides fast like you say it does I think it's gonna be a very fun pair owing to to ride When it comes to the fabrics
Dom (32:43)
Hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (32:57)
Are you guys doing anything different with the actual fabric that you're using? Has that changed from the V1 to the V2 because we did have the power pack is another iteration in the middle. Are we still expected to have the same fabric in the pocket rocket V1s as we have in the V2s?
Dom (33:17)
Yes, it's very much the same. I'll change there.
Daniel Paronetto (33:21)
And that's that 32,
32 gram fabric. Is it 30 or 32? I can't remember now.
Dom (33:26)
Exactly, yeah.
It's a 32 grams, yeah. And it's really good. The longevity, we've been testing all kinds of materials, but this is a good all-around material. It's still peg-small enough. It's super durable. And it sheds off water quite well. So it's all it's needed for a device like that.
Daniel Paronetto (33:30)
32 grams. β
Mm.
Do you think it's, β like in, the next, let's say two, three years, β I mean, you guys have a great knowledge bank already of fabrics and what's happening in paragliding and we kind of inherited that fabric from the paragliding world. Do you think there will be anything that will be more, let's say water friendly and something that we will create that will be a little bit different from what we have now?
Dom (34:21)
β At the moment I don't really know because this is already you know β coated with stuff that makes the watershed shed off like it's not the the nylon itself doesn't suck up the water anymore so there's it's highly coated and May I don't know really at the moment. I don't see the need for it really
Daniel Paronetto (34:34)
Mm.
Yeah. I think about it. Cause like, when we start thinking about, you know, racing and we have a couple of races, you know, that are coming up. β and whenever we get to that kind of world, you know, we're looking at the one percenters and people start to put a lot of money into.
Dom (34:57)
Hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (35:07)
Um, evolving the materials and you know, like, think we're very early in pair wings where, know, even our technique can give us 10 % improvements, but down the line when we're going to all kind of converge into, know, the same kind of shape and overall, you know, look of a pair of wing. think that's when, you know, the, racing scene and materials and, um, other types of pair wings will come into play. Like obviously, um, a couple of, a couple of brands have.
launch their hybrids. β I haven't heard anything from Ozone yet about a hybrid, β but that is definitely picking up some momentum within certain circles. β What do you guys think about the hybrid at this stage?
Dom (35:51)
β Yeah, it's a different, interesting concept. I'm not saying it's not the way to go for, but at the moment we're working on something, but it's not quite a hybrid. Anyway, we're just fiddling around and trying.
Daniel Paronetto (36:07)
Keep them guessing Dom.
Axel (36:13)
Keep teasing them, Dom.
Daniel Paronetto (36:16)
Yeah.
Dom (36:20)
It's a different concept from the hybrid, but it's fast. β And yeah, I think we'll have another talk about that in a different episode.
Axel (36:20)
what we can say, what we can say is better.
Daniel Paronetto (36:20)
Well, I,
It's... It's fast.
Axel (36:27)
It's super fast.
Daniel Paronetto (36:38)
Yeah, interesting. I I
was, mean, my next question was, is there space for a third model in the pair wing lineup? Because, um, and I don't know where that could come end of...
Dom (36:50)
as you said, now
we start racing. So maybe there is something a bit more appropriate for racing that is in the, in the works here.
Daniel Paronetto (36:58)
Yeah, nice. mean, I think it's, it's, it's awesome
to hear that because that kind of, just evolution and just progression just keeps, you know, filtering down and the gear will just get better. I think with the race now in Lucat, that's going to be super exciting to see people race, but you know, not only go upwind and crosswind and whatever, but they're going to step stow. Like, how's that going to work? You know, I think I really enjoyed what they did with.
Dom (37:23)
Mm.
Daniel Paronetto (37:27)
the format of the event that they kept true to what pair winging is that you have to get rid of it at some point. I think that's awesome. And I think for the viewers, it'll be super interesting to see like all of a sudden, like, Oh my God, they're not using anything now. Like how does that work? So, um, are you guys excited about the event? Any of you going who's racing? We need some people there, man.
Dom (37:33)
Yeah, I agree.
Mm.
Axel. We signed up Axel up for it.
Daniel Paronetto (37:56)
Nice. You
going Axel? Alright.
Axel (37:58)
Yeah, I'm keen. β I'm not sure yet. Depends
to the forecast, depends to the work that we have to do here as a team in Moorishness.
Daniel Paronetto (38:05)
The work is fine,
man. Dom will give you a break. He will give you couple days off.
Dom (38:07)
Yeah.
Axel (38:08)
Yes, exactly. If I have the green
light, you unleash the beast and I'm coming.
Daniel Paronetto (38:14)
wow. All right. Game on. Let's go. Look, I think it's going to be a really, it'll be a cool event to be part of, It's, you know, it's still at the inception. So I think, you know, even being there is just, it's an opportunity for you guys to influence the future of how those things should be β formatted because a lot of the stuff will be kind of decided on the spot.
Dom (38:15)
Yeah. All right, Axel, book your flight.
Axel (38:16)
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (38:43)
Should we pack down in an accessory? Should we not? Like all those questions you guys will influence because you'll be there racing. So you'll have a say. I think it's awesome, man. If you guys can go. I think it's a, I wanted to, but I had to, you know, pick between Hood River and Lucat and I'm a surfer man. Like I like racing, but if I have to spend my money, I'll go to Hood.
Dom (38:45)
Mm.
Are you coming over?
I see you there then. Yeah, somewhere in August, end of August I think we're going. When are you?
Daniel Paronetto (39:12)
Yeah, nice. Where are you going though?
Axel (39:12)
Alright.
Daniel Paronetto (39:20)
I'm going to go early in the season. I'll go the last two weeks of June.
Yeah, it's still, it's, it's yeah. mean, we'll, we'll all get wind, but you guys will be there for AWS site. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll try to go back for that. And I tried last year. I didn't make it. β but that's more of a, a networking kind of thing. And I don't know if I, if I have back to back cash for it, but we'll see, we'll see. β well, let's get back to the pairs because, β for, people that are now, I mean, there's a lot of people, man, you would not believe the amount of people that are waiting.
Dom (39:27)
I that. Okay. We'll go for the AWSI. Yeah.
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (39:55)
for this pair wing to come out to make a decision of what they're gonna do with their quiver. β So for people who are looking to get into the Pocket Rocket V2s, β how would you recommend them building their quiver or like what are the things that you would maybe tell them that this pair wing is for? You said it's an all rounder, β but people that are on the sidelines waiting to...
see if they upgrade from the V1s or not. Like, what can you tell these folks? Cause there's a lot of them out there, man. Everybody's asking me, when are they coming? What do they feel like? And you know, should I get one? Should I wait?
Dom (40:33)
Well, yeah, well, obviously the wait is over now, but get one. Yes, I can very highly recommend one, obviously. It's definitely a big step up from the V1. All the negative points that have been addressed on the V1 or that have been mentioned in the one has now been addressed and kind of put into the V2. And if you...
Daniel Paronetto (40:37)
You
Mm.
Dom (41:01)
Well, if you want to describe what it is, it's kind of describe it as a crossover between the V1 and the Power Pack. You know, it's got all the good attributes from the Power Pack, but it's got the performance of the of the V1 pocket rocket. And it's a it's a very nice package. Looking at a quiver, it depends, obviously, on the conditions you're writing them in. I'm not really a fan of kind of
Daniel Paronetto (41:09)
Yep.
Dom (41:30)
leaving every other size out of your clipper because it kind of restricts you too much and the way we create the sizes is so you know there is a big enough gap to the next size but you can't really jump one like you can't really go from the 3-6 to the 5 because you're missing out on the 4-3
Daniel Paronetto (41:34)
Mmm.
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Dom (41:53)
I mean, if you're really hanging on to DLi from the 5 and then you jump down to the 3-6, it kind of works. But it's the way we create the sizes is so, you at least you want like three sizes or something like that. You know, 3-6 and a 4-3 or yeah. There's not much overlap, I'd say. And you rather, and especially on the power on the power wing, you want to be...
Daniel Paronetto (42:00)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think we're still at that point of, yeah.
Dom (42:22)
perfectly powered, like they're not really fun riding them underpowered or overpowered. So, you know, it's, and with the, now we've got launched the mission pack, which is a little stash backpack where you can easily just put a spare one in or even two. You know, you can now go out and taking all your quiver, you know, having one in your stash harness, two in your little...
Daniel Paronetto (42:24)
Mm.
It's pretty good.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (42:51)
backpack. You're taking all the quiver with you and you just pick whatever suits the wind you're in. Really.
Daniel Paronetto (42:59)
Yeah, pretty much.
The, and, looking like going just back to the canopy, I'm looking at, β some of those release photos and I feel like the, β compared to the V1, this one has more of that parachuto kind of shape as well. β on the trailing edge, is that me just overlooking the images or do you guys, did you guys bring bleeding the trailing edge in a little bit like the, like the power packs?
Dom (43:31)
It's kind of cupping down, that's what you mean, isn't it? That's when you apply tension to the back lines, obviously, yes, to the Cs, how you call them. We call them the breaks, obviously, then that's where it cups. Other than that, we actually have more support on the structure of the canopy. We've got more supported ribs than on the V1. Obviously, we had to do that to maintain the same...
Daniel Paronetto (43:33)
Yeah, yeah.
The breaks. Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (44:00)
performance or increase the performance of it upwind while reducing the aspect ratio.
Daniel Paronetto (44:03)
Nice.
And all of these little cutouts and that I can see here, those are, β on that structural elements in the middle. That's just for less material, less weight, water drainage, just.
Dom (44:19)
weight reduction.
That's on the, yes, the ones you see on the diagonals, what we call them, diagonal ribs, which are spreading the load into the sail. Basically from in the bridle attachment point, you've got supporting the unsupported sail with those diagonals without using bridle lines, pretty much. And yes, the cutouts are just weight reduction.
Daniel Paronetto (44:27)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, nice.
Nice. Well, look, I'm man, I'm so excited about this pair when you would not even imagine. β what did you guys, I mean, you, you obviously, you know, felt that progression very slowly because you would have tested a lot, but did you ever like go to one of the latest, β iterations of the V2 and then you rode the V1 again, just to see what it was like to just see how much it, you know,
Was it changed? And like, how did that feel? Because you guys write that. You would have written a lot of prototypes before getting to that final one.
Dom (45:21)
You
Yeah, quite obvious. there was a lot of prototyping going on. So every time we go jump back on the V1, and I can see why a lot of people like it, but for us, it's a no-go anymore. what I find very difficult on it is the stall point comes very sudden, like the back stall, you're kind of cranking on the bar and then it suddenly backflies.
Daniel Paronetto (45:40)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (45:53)
So you have to be super precise on it while, you know, with that new shape, lower aspect ratio in combination with the bow line and the whole setup. You just now, you just crank up on the bar and it still keeps on flying and just generates more pull to, you know, pull you out or to pull you more upwind. It also feels like you can, you're locking in more when you're riding upwind, you just...
because you've got more range in the bar now without having to be paying so much attention on the stall point. You just lock yourself in and cruising upwind, you know, like leaning on an angle, not having to balance so much with your body. It's a way nicer sensation. It just feels a bit more like hooked in kiting. You like you hook in and then you got your D power to play here and it's...
Daniel Paronetto (46:37)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Dom (46:50)
more progressive than just on and off.
Daniel Paronetto (46:55)
Well, I have a question for both of you. β and this is a personal question because we're all different and we all have different writing styles, but if you were to build a quiver with three pair wings, what sizes would you choose and what models would you choose? And I think it's worth also giving us a little bit of understanding of the conditions you guys ride in just so we can, you can help us figure out what we want as well.
Dom (47:23)
Axel, you start. I haven't thought about it. We don't need to make those sacrifices, know.
Axel (47:25)
That's a hard question. Yeah, no. Yay.
Daniel Paronetto (47:27)
It's hard, only three. You have to get three. You just get everything.
What's in the truck today?
Axel (47:35)
That's a really hard question because we tried to design those two projects as good as possible. So it's a hard work for the customers to choose as well. I would say I will take the Powerpack as a small sizes and the Pocket Rocket as bigger sizes, mainly because the Pocket Rocket has more performance. Why? As soon as you...
Daniel Paronetto (47:46)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Axel (48:03)
drop down sizes, doesn't really, it's not that important anymore because in a 2.4 or a 3 meter power wing, you're going up in any way on the power pack or on the pocket rocket. Yes, you will go better on the pocket rocket. But the stashability is also pretty important, especially for me when I'm riding in France, as soon as there is 30 knots,
Daniel Paronetto (48:19)
Mm-hmm.
Axel (48:33)
they are huge waves and the packability fast is super important for me. β
And then, yeah, I'm taking the pocket rocket as big sizes for going up wind better, faster, and mainly because when I'm riding light wind, I like to do big laps, going as fast as possible, and just put the power wing into the star shardness, forget about it, and do a down wind. So yeah, we'll go for a five.
Daniel Paronetto (48:59)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, okay.
Axel (49:12)
and 2.4 and in the middle like 3.6 I think.
Daniel Paronetto (49:19)
Yeah, so you're just doing exactly what Dom said not to do. Don't jump to sizes or jump sizes. You're a pro, man. You can do it. What board and kind of foils do you use normally, Axel? What's the dimensions of your board and foils that you use?
Dom (49:22)
Bye.
Axel (49:26)
Yeah.
Dom (49:28)
He can do it.
Axel (49:38)
β
Yeah, I'm mainly using 65 liters. I was using 75 before, but I'm now dropping down. Yeah, because I think I have good skills and hard pumping in the light wind. I can pump like a maniac, so I don't need a big board anymore. But I still using a big foil for light wind, like 880.
Daniel Paronetto (49:46)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Axel (50:07)
And as soon as the wind is strong enough, I'm going for 680.
Daniel Paronetto (50:08)
Yep.
Yeah, nice. And how much do you weigh?
Axel (50:16)
I'm about 83 kg.
Daniel Paronetto (50:21)
Okay. Yeah, nice. Yeah. I always like to put some numbers for, for us, cause it's so helpful to know what you guys are writing as well. And how do you think of, know, you're writing, think 65 for me is probably the lowest volume that I can still use a pair of wing that I can go up wind with. If I go under that volume, I start using pair of wings that are not that comfortable going up wind anymore. And then it's fine if you're doing downwinders, but, β
I do a lot of lap riding. for me, 65 is yeah, it's pretty, pretty much down. I'm a similar weight to you.
Axel (50:53)
Like,
I'm β riding in 12, 12 knots, so solid 12 knots, no problem with the 65-liter board.
Daniel Paronetto (51:03)
Yeah. Well, I'm not quite there. I still use my 80 when it's 15 knots. 20 knots for me is when I start thinking about the 65. And then I'm pretty comfortable going, going on it. β what about you Dom? What's your three pair of wing quiver sizes and models and, and justification, please.
Dom (51:26)
I think I would stick to just the pocket rocket and depending on the spots I think you want the three meters the smallest I wouldn't really want to feel the need to go smaller in there because even if it's like plus 30 knots you're just going upwind on it anyways and then you pack in it away so it doesn't really matter too much
Daniel Paronetto (51:39)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (51:53)
and the 3 has a good range and then yeah, 3, 6 and 4, 3 I don't need a bigger one than a 4, 3 really I'm only 70, whatever kilos, 72 and I can make the 4, 3 work in 12 knots something like that and the 55 I also run yeah, but remember I'm
Daniel Paronetto (52:01)
Yeah.
Yeah, nice. What board are you using, Dom?
55? You dog. That's pretty...
Dom (52:22)
I'm tankier than you.
Daniel Paronetto (52:25)
True, but 55 is
still a pretty small board. think once you start going into the lower volume boards, like five liters plus or minus makes a lot of difference when you're in the 50, 60 range, but like a 90 or 95, it's the same stuff almost really. β
Dom (52:41)
But I find, I explained it in the other podcast as well. don't understand why a lot of people still write the big board, especially people that write really well. Like there's no need as soon as you're in the windy spot, you're going up on a small, you you get the speed on a small board. Once you're on the surface, the smaller board is only advantageous because the pumping is easier. You've got less mess. You've got less wing stuff around.
Daniel Paronetto (53:01)
Mm.
Yeah, I... Mmm.
Dom (53:11)
Obviously once you're foiling it's way more fun anyway, especially if you're going downwind. You're way more maneuverable and everything is way more fun. I don't understand why I see still a lot of people using big boards to be honest.
Daniel Paronetto (53:27)
Yeah, for me, when it's like 12 knots here, the problem is it's very, I think, location dependent. Like it's 12 knots, but it's eight to 12 knots. So you really, and if you, if you're out there for an hour and you want to maximize that hour, you don't want to be fluffing about, you know, waiting 10 minutes to get up for the right gust. I think that's where I still reach out for the bigger board. And the bigger board for me is an 80 liter and
Dom (53:38)
Mm.
Daniel Paronetto (53:55)
I thought I wanted something bigger than that, but I definitely don't anymore. β I think that's when I, I pulled that out. β and sometimes even going out on a bigger board with a super small foil is, something that I play around with a lot, you know, those little levers where you up your board, but you can downsize your, your foil a lot more. And it's really depending on what I'm doing for the conditions and things like that.
Dom (54:21)
Hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (54:23)
But I do think that giving you having a two board quiver and for me, it's the 65 and the 80. It will almost give you a little bit of extra wind range on the pair of wings that you own. So it gives you a little bit more option. So I think a lot of people still, still want that to, maximize their quiver. You know what I mean?
Axel (54:46)
Yeah, I'm sure if you're using a bigger board, even for us, if we are using bigger board, we can start even earlier in the low end, for sure.
Daniel Paronetto (54:55)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Where do you guys?
Dom (54:57)
Yeah, I would still
never put a second board in my car or in my truck. If you can just buy a little one kilo power wing instead. If you're going for a five or five seven power wing, takes a lot of less space, costs probably less and it's just, I don't know. For me, two board quiver is not, and the board is just like, and if you go traveling, do you travel with two boards or you then sacrifice one? It's just like, and you we...
Axel (55:02)
Yeah, true.
Daniel Paronetto (55:08)
Yeah.
Axel (55:17)
than a bird.
Daniel Paronetto (55:26)
Hmm.
Dom (55:27)
We go around places a lot, so for me it's important to just, you know, carry around one board. That's plenty already. So yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (55:36)
Yeah.
Axel (55:38)
No, no, Dum is right. We prefer working on wings and power wings design than having two boards and deciding which one to take. It's better to make the power wings more powerful than using a different board.
Daniel Paronetto (55:49)
Mmm.
Dom (55:54)
You
Daniel Paronetto (55:56)
I like it. It helps us all. You mentioned a five, seven though. hadn't seen that size in the last, β in the last, in the V ones. What are the sizes that the, pocket rockets V two's are coming in?
Dom (56:11)
It's the same sizes as the V1, so it's a 1.9, 2.4, 3, 3.6, 4.3, 5, and then the additional 5.7 now, which works quite amazingly well. Dima, know, Dimitri, he's using it here all the time now because it's light wind season here a little bit, so he's out on the big one every day. Yeah, loving it. Yeah, pretty much.
Daniel Paronetto (56:14)
Mm-hmm.
Nice.
Yeah.
He's out on everything every day, he? Every time I talk
to him, he's trying something new and doing some weird accessory. And he's a good guy to have around though. He would give you guys plenty of feedback.
Dom (56:46)
He does, yeah, yeah, it's good fun. Really appreciate it. And he's a charger, you know, it's like every day, what are you going to do today? What are we going to do today?
Daniel Paronetto (56:49)
Good.
Yeah, absolutely.
Where do you guys see β the this this year going man? Like is there anything that is on your radar with you know, how the sport is evolving now? β that you know change from last year that you're seeing trends coming up or What are you guys looking at? Into how the sport is gonna progress this year
Dom (57:17)
Well, I'm excited to see where all that racing format is going and what, know, if, if the public is actually jumping on that, if I don't know if it's going to be a trend or whatever, but I'm quite excited to see what's happening down in the cut. And other than that, I don't know. I think probably another trend is, the performance side of things, isn't it? It's always exciting.
Daniel Paronetto (57:29)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (57:45)
The more you progress and the better you get in a sport to kind of have a new challenge and know either might it be speed or better upwind or I don't know something towards that direction. I think the performance side of things we're not, we haven't reached the end of the performance side, that's for sure.
Daniel Paronetto (58:05)
No, for sure. We're at the V2s. It's hard to imagine, man. They were still in the V2s and the, you know, the equipment is this good. I feel like the wings took a while to get as good as the pair of wings got. Um, it might be just, you know, looking retrospectively, but, um, I feel the pair wings, like even the V1s man, the, the, pocket Rockets V1s for me are still the pair wings I go for. That's what I reach out when I'm going out and I'm 80 % of the time on, um, I'm using them.
Dom (58:19)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (58:35)
and they still like, they're still amazing. So we're still early, but β I think we're moving very fast in terms of where the pair wings are already.
Dom (58:47)
Yeah, I agree. It's definitely super fast. know, from from all brands, development is going full speed on it. While I think on the wings, it's kind of slowed down a bit more, isn't it? Now, it's not that the steps are not, you know, as big anymore, obviously, as they are in a new sport.
Daniel Paronetto (58:56)
Yeah.
Axel (58:57)
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (59:00)
Mmm.
Axel, where do you see Paro in going, man? What, β when you go out, said you do a lot, of, it just lap riding downwinders? What are you focused on and what do you, what are you excited about for this year?
Axel (59:22)
β We had this conversation yesterday with them on the beach saying that because I'm coming from and β Kite for Racing and β since I stopped for joining full-time the R &D team I stopped racing and I've been fully involved so now because ParaWing is going faster and faster the natural things are coming back to myself.
Daniel Paronetto (59:33)
Mm-hmm.
Axel (59:51)
So I want to go back racing again. And as Dom said, I'm super excited about what's going to happen the next month. yeah, mean, racing is good. It's my passion for forever. But yeah, I'm super excited about what's going to happen into the future and especially what's going to happen. I mean,
Dom (59:52)
you
Axel (1:00:20)
excited about the feedbacks from the customers about the Pocket Rocket V2 because we put all of our effort during a year of development and work for this project that now we are waiting to know what we can improve even more. We have that feeling that the V1 was β easy to make it better because that was the
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:26)
Mm-hmm.
Amazing.
Axel (1:00:49)
beginning of the sports and we release it pretty fast without β working on it as much as possible. Now the V2 is a really finished product and I think it's going to be even harder to improve. This is what I'm saying right now. So that's why I'm waiting for the customer's feedback to know in which direction we should go for the future.
Dom (1:01:10)
you
Daniel Paronetto (1:01:17)
Amazing man. mean, I can't even imagine what it's like to be the riding pair of wings every day and making them better. That's probably the best job in the world right now, man. So you are lucky man, a lucky team. β but guys, thank you, β for your time today, getting, know, this inside scoop into what's happening. The V2s are coming out. I'm extremely excited. This is definitely what I'm going to be riding for the rest of the year. So, β Axel and Dom, you will get some feedback from myself.
He doesn't even know if it might change. There's a third pair of wing in the way. I heard someone said that. All right. I can't sleep now. Don't you know what is it? β But thank you. Thank you very much for coming on. And thank you for the passion of, you know, putting all the effort into these products because they are definitely changing what foiling is and what foiling, you know,
Dom (1:01:51)
Don't talk too much. The rest of the year is still long. It's all coming. It's all coming.
Daniel Paronetto (1:02:15)
can give us as β riders. So thank you and I can't wait to get my hands on them.
Dom (1:02:23)
Thank you very much for having us and β looking forward to hearing from your feedback.
Axel (1:02:23)
Thank you. Thanks a lot.
Daniel Paronetto (1:02:32)
I'm sure I'll be frothy, man. Thanks again, guys, and we'll see you soon.
