Daniel Paronetto (01:15)
Welcome to the LabRat for the podcast. My name is Dan and today we have Greg Drexler back on the podcast to talk about his latest creation, the S3 Parrowing. Welcome back, Greg.
Greg (01:29)
Thank you for having me back. Is this second time, third time? Where are we at?
Daniel Paronetto (01:33)
I don't know now, but β yeah, it's been a little while. β I think I was like, I was walking on the beach the other day, like the wind, you know, changed direction in a weird way. And I'm like, what is Greg up to? You were too quiet. Everything was too quiet. I send you an email. Hey man, what's up? And then like two days later, all this stuff comes out. I'm like, β you've been busy, my friend. You've been very busy.
Greg (01:50)
you
Daniel Paronetto (02:01)
Tell us a little bit about, you know, the last probably six months. β since, know, we've heard a little bit about what's going on BRM and, now this huge drop with completely new, new ergonomics, man.
Greg (02:17)
Yeah, so you felt that in the wind. That's crazy.
Daniel Paronetto (02:20)
Yeah, when the wind blows
southeast here, I'm like, Greg's up to something, man. I know he's up to something.
Greg (02:24)
Southeast,
no that's the wrong direction for Maui. It's circling around somehow but six months yeah I mean I guess the six months have been dominated with just head down focus working on the gear like nothing else β and it's awesome to have it out you know because trying to keep things not that we're crazy β like don't see what we're doing but we're also
Daniel Paronetto (02:28)
Yeah
Mmm.
Greg (02:54)
preserve a little element of surprise and looks like there was a little bit of that into launch. Yeah, yeah,
Daniel Paronetto (02:59)
I surprised.
It's, I, I enjoy like going through a little bit about just the, these six months in your life going from, right, I have three pair of wings. They're all working well. People are, you know, enjoying riding them. And I remember the last podcast, I had a question that said, you know, what's that one little thing that you want to change that you're not really enjoying about your gear and you're like everything.
And you weren't bow-shitting because you just changed everything. Like everything changed. Like what led you to go from three pair of wings that were good to now having like this one solution with a completely new type of engagement, you know, like how we actually touched the pair of wing. How was that process?
Greg (03:34)
You
Hmm, okay, you might have to remind me of all the different points of that but three wings, yeah, three single skins plus a double skin, four in total coming down to one and you also touched on my comments from before. I don't remember specifically what I said but I laughed when you said it because for sure, you know,
Daniel Paronetto (03:54)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (04:16)
part of my job is never ever being satisfied. That's where I'm at and the benchmark is with this gear and always when I get to you know the dissatisfaction and the attempts at problem solving gone forever but when I get to a point when I go back to the previous gear and I'm all like okay well that's that's not what I want to recommend to riders then I know I'm just like okay well we've got to put this out because it has moved forward β that that's
That's the guide. β Distilling down into a single model, never ever the plan. β We're working on everything. I mean, the idea behind that is going from this, know, rewinding a year ago, going, completing the single skin, starting work on the double skins or picking up work on a double skin, moving that to a front burner.
Daniel Paronetto (04:54)
Crazy.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (05:14)
launching
to play β what we learned at a process, really the experience with those was that, okay, well, you're gonna get certain performance advantages from these different design categories. So it's like, okay, if you really wanna do this one thing, you're gonna have a design for that. If you wanna do this other thing, you're have a design for that. And so we were working in all these different directions and.
It was, it was well and truly the case that through the whole process, biting this, I got to improve this one part. It's like cross testing with what became the S3. It's like, gosh, this is working. It was, it was good because it kept pushing the other areas forward and like, learn something there that that crossed over like each category crossed over into the other. β but when we finally got to it, almost sort of after the fact,
Daniel Paronetto (05:57)
amazing.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (06:13)
when we're like, we've made our decision. The hybrid, for example, we're not gonna launch it at this time. It's not what we recommend. Part of that being like, what's somebody gonna get in Joy? We can dive deep on that. So β we're laughing because.
Daniel Paronetto (06:23)
Mm-hmm.
Well, it was, I was surprised.
Like I was expecting a hybrid and I think, and I was questioning myself to understand like, it worth having a hybrid? If you have a single and a double skin, does the hybrid actually give you any benefits? Like who is that rider that wants the hybrid that wouldn't want a double skin or doesn't want a single skin? Did you check tests? You know, the hybrids a lot and stress test that kind of concept to say.
Greg (06:39)
Me too.
Daniel Paronetto (07:02)
that's not worth going forward with.
Greg (07:06)
Yeah, in a big, big way. And then, and I don't think there's a single hybrid. There's, β you can slice and dice out a lot of different ways. How much double, how much single angle of attacks comparisons. mean, for me, there, there's sort of an inherent challenge in getting what a double surface does, pairing that with what a single surface does and where that union is and how it an angle attack and where it flies. And so where I was rambling on to final
Daniel Paronetto (07:07)
Mm.
Mmm.
Greg (07:34)
comment on that is like after we said, okay, we're not doing we we we made it a little bit more public. We took it out to the beach. People had seen us working on it, but we put it in more people's hands and we're like, okay, for sure. We made the right decision because it just wasn't that easy to ride for the final direction we had taken it, which I guess is it is an interesting comment of back to like you can there's no one hybrid performance because you can
design it and tune it so many different ways and to sort of maximize in what we experienced in the process, maximize its performance potential, it gets hard to ride. Make it easy to ride, it doesn't really do anything better. yeah, in the end we're like, gosh, and I guess, you know, part of that too is we took the single skin, designed to a place different than.
Daniel Paronetto (08:20)
Hmm.
Greg (08:33)
than we ever had and that I've seen to be like, far can we take it? How much can we pull from all the other categories? How, yeah, a single skin, you know, how double skin like do we make a single skin? And so for me, was like categories, semantics aside, it was, was just about, yeah, how does, how's the thing working?
Daniel Paronetto (08:41)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Man,
I love to hear that stuff, because I can't even imagine how many prototypes you go through. Is it easy to lose touch? At some point you have all these pairings and you're I don't even know what I like anymore,
Greg (09:08)
Not it is it is Lou it is easy to like lose sense of like how many of these darn things have I made and each one of them like how many crazy number of hours have I invested in like Well, can can I make it tick more boxes for me? Like how valid can it become? How much can it inform the next one along with it the total number count? But to the later part of your question is like getting lost in a process No, because like in the like you me all of us that you get on the water, know if it's working or not, so
Daniel Paronetto (09:38)
Yeah.
Greg (09:38)
That's easy.
Daniel Paronetto (09:39)
Yeah. Well, I really love the simplicity of one power wing. That's the one that you're going to ride. does, you know, that's the best performance we can extract out of a pair of wing concept. So I love that you did that. β but the big thing was obviously the new bar system. And I think we'll let's maybe talk from the bottom up, starting with the bar. We'll move through the by bridles into the canopy, β and talk about as many features as we can, like how.
Did you get to the D grip? What was, you know, not working with a normal bar that you're like, I need something, I need to hold this differently.
Greg (10:19)
Yeah, perfectly said. β
The best I can recall, mean, like everything pulls from everything. So for me, there's no singular starting point, but one I'll point to that it definitely was influential in the end product was, and it's probably wasn't even in this year's development as prior rewinding previous years, but like working on prototypes, testing different concepts.
that didn't really have a whole lot of power, worked great like within a certain zone and then like right and more powered up and you're getting killed and which I guess touches on you like what you know why in the first place I mean the why in the first place is like I got a pencil here like the ergonomics of like a bar and and you know the fact that we're we're sheeting out and so you're hanging off the front of the bar but you're holding with two hands you want it
Daniel Paronetto (10:55)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (11:21)
pulled with both hands but it's pulled with your backhand you're cheating even more so you end up hanging just off your front hand and like yeah we added the knob and the yoke to limit how much the bar is going to change and all of these steps toward improving upon that problem but like there's like underhand grip doesn't work overhand grip doesn't work you're getting pulled from here that that's that's the problem like how do we make this comfy and one thing
Daniel Paronetto (11:36)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (11:49)
that we stumbled upon is riding a bar and the front lines. guess I was working on a particular concept where the two halves of the pyro wing leading edge or even, even protoback canopy were bunched into two at the front. And I don't know what I was thinking about, but I added something between those two. So it was floating up on the bridle lines. And I found that if I put my hand there on these prototypes that weren't depowering, I just rested a hand there.
Daniel Paronetto (12:03)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Greg (12:19)
And I'm like, okay, it's the same wing. It's pulling just as hard. The wing was actually bridled like really far back. So it's not like I was cheating parts of the canopy out. It was like the whole canopy was loaded and I'm like, but I can handle this pull. The pull isn't the problem. The ergonomics is the problem. Like it was crystal clear at that point. That was a long time ago. The problem, you know, that's a great, sweet, easy solution, but the problem is
Daniel Paronetto (12:27)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (12:47)
If you're holding something on lines and it's disconnected from the bar, then there's all this slop between how do I steer this thing? What, when is it engaged? When it is, is it not engaged? It was just too disjointed. β so the seed had been there a long time, like identifying that solution long, long time ago. β but it was, it was just kind of growing and evolving in this and that. And we're like, there's gotta be an easier way. like,
Daniel Paronetto (12:51)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (13:14)
How do we make it not disjointed? Well, okay, just a big T on the end of the bar. Like that's easy. Well, is that gonna hook lies? I don't know, but more importantly, it just wasn't that comfortable. Simple and easy. But like these fingers are stronger than these fingers. I want it in a different place. So it's like, okay, we do this thing. β So long, long process. But I think you and I both have backgrounds in kiting.
Daniel Paronetto (13:25)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (13:42)
I say there's no singular point because along with that, I wasn't only looking at bars and how do we change a bar? Like, do we put it on a kite bar? do we put the orientation like this? Why even did I do that? I guess because the early prototypes, you know, had A, B and C lines, I needed a place to put them. I was just replicating what the bridle actually does. So like the very first power wing, like earliest concepts, I just put it on the bar. It was like,
Daniel Paronetto (13:54)
Yeah.
Greg (14:11)
crazy long. β You've been able to chat with my wife, Erika. She was like, I don't know what you're doing in the backyard flying that thing, but that bar is ridiculous. Could you shorten the bar? There would have been no belt. She's like, that's nice, but you're developing a product. People aren't going to shove it up their neoprene top. Yeah. So anyway, the bar got shorter. We did all this stuff. I'm rambling, but. β
Daniel Paronetto (14:15)
love it.
Where do you put it?
Greg (14:41)
But it's like, yeah, what like this discomfort angle of attack as Kiter's we control the angle attack separately from the steering. It's all this cool stuff. So it's like, can I go that route this and that so? To wrap up on this singular question, not keep us here all day like I grabbed a bar here thinking I might need to refer to it, but it's like this is our sheeting in and out action like it's I think it's it's it's totally.
Daniel Paronetto (15:05)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (15:07)
informed by like kiting the bar traveling up and down the lines and you know in a a kite bar we steer it like this and this by the way, this is upside down, you know that but um Like actually interesting something that I haven't even spoken to at all But it does have a slight effect on steering which is kind of cool and it's it's subtle enough that like you almost don't know it's there But if you like reach up and pull a sideline, you're like, oh, yeah, that's doing something so there's that More than that like
Daniel Paronetto (15:10)
100%.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (15:38)
you know, a more tangible thing about it's like straddling these two and the load being balanced between these two. It's like, it's really solid. It kind of gives you kind of a lot of feedback. I go back to a bar now I'm like, like, where is it? It's kind of, it flies itself up there. Yeah, just, I don't know that it's, it's a tippy, but it just feels like this. You're like, you've got this feedback, like this connection that you're just like, yeah, I know exactly where it is. Um, but yeah, it's.
Daniel Paronetto (15:51)
little pitchy, little tipsy, yeah.
Greg (16:07)
It's about the sheeting and making, β avoiding this thing that it's just like, doesn't matter where you're sheeted. It just pivots.
Daniel Paronetto (16:14)
Yeah. And I don't know if,
I don't know if you get this, but I have like a little bit of a pain on my pinkies from just having like that, that, that pole of just shooting in and shooting exactly what you're saying. I'm feeling a little bit on my tendons on my little pinky finger from those big, like when it's big and like strong wind.
Greg (16:35)
Ooh.
Daniel Paronetto (16:42)
Even doing that right now, I can feel it like just pinch right there. And those things, when I saw the bar, I'm like, well, you know, maybe we are holding this thing the wrong way. Like we are, β compensating on the bar for forces that, you know, we can maybe do things differently. And it's crazy how like then that this comes out. So when I saw it, I think even doing certain tricks and certain moves like attack, are you able to hold the D grip with.
Greg (16:45)
Mm, brutal.
Daniel Paronetto (17:10)
the back of the bar pointing that way and have enough steering and tension on the brake lines to actually do like a controlled tack, just holding it on the front.
Greg (17:24)
Yeah, so there's actually a lot to unpack in that simple question. And we'll circle back. I'll answer your question directly after mentioning what the other parts of that are is I mentioned β the prototype with a lack of deep power when the full light bulb came on that, OK, this perpendicular front-hand orientation is dissolved. Yeah, go ahead and pull a thing. I got you. β
Daniel Paronetto (17:30)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (17:53)
But rewind to the S3 that we're putting it on. There's so much deep power in that thing that one of the... So yesterday was our first public demo day. And so it was great to like put it in more writers' hands, see what they experience, hear what they have to say, look at the differences between people who had looked at the website, digested the information versus people come in cold and like the disconnect in what is this versus people.
Daniel Paronetto (18:12)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, that'd be awesome.
Yeah.
Greg (18:26)
But anyway back to the side point of the S3 has so much D power that it doesn't in that regard need as much from this bar as that really on that I mentioned so people are like Dude your wing D powers. Why do you need a different? But for me that the quick answer on that I'm taking a different direction is it makes optional riding with a harness
Daniel Paronetto (18:37)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (18:53)
But enough on that. Your question was tacking different things with toe side, you know, in addition to like tacking, one of the questions is like toe side riding in different β ways of riding and such. The sweet spot in the wings balance point is roughly here. So you are kind of straddling it, which is really nice in a lot of applications, but does it is a mind bender for applying
Daniel Paronetto (19:05)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (19:21)
some of the ways we've used a bar in the past because we might have just put our hand right here and you can't hear the same place. So we can dive deep into that but to answer your question of attack, yesterday after somebody asked me that I went out for a quick burn on the water and I'm like, let me do attack. What do I do? I don't know, I just do it. What I found is I reach right here, like I reach on a side and I'm whipping it through that way because that's sort of the balance point, which is nice because then I've got the handle, like I can...
Daniel Paronetto (19:39)
Mmm.
Greg (19:51)
transition from one to the other. We've got not to, not to.
Daniel Paronetto (19:53)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (19:59)
Well digress too far, like even taxiing out in the water and like how much like if you just hold it by here, the steering super bad. So what I put some fingers on the bar to trim those back lines, especially with the D power nature of this wing. And somebody said yesterday, it's just like your kite. I was like, wow, I didn't think of that. That's so cool. Um, but yeah, you got to engage those back lines and have the steering.
Daniel Paronetto (20:11)
Just a little tension on the brakes.
Greg (20:25)
You can put your hand here. We've got all kinds of videos and stuff on the site for all those tips.
Daniel Paronetto (20:29)
Yeah, that's really cool, man. I love this stuff because it's gonna open up like a, think about trying it and I'm in my head already putting my hand behind and holding it like with, you know, the middle in between my two fingers so I can actually do that. He said the balance point is a little bit towards the middle. I would probably try to like open my fingers and grab it from the back. Yeah, yeah. Because then I can actually go up wind.
Greg (20:49)
Yeah.
this one? I haven't done that, maybe.
Daniel Paronetto (20:58)
change direction and it wouldn't really, I wouldn't have to do an underhand grip or grab the other side of the bar. Like I could do a one-hand attack and take it to the other side with a little bit of tension. But I, I really love this innovation, man. It's such a paradigm shift. Like it's so hard for someone who's so close to the sport to be able to do something that is so different from the norm. And man.
I have to commend you for that because it's great to see this type of innovation and people pushing where the sport can go. So nice man. Well done. β So I want to understand as well, since you have the bar with you as well, I think that helps when we are going to stow. So we have the A lines connected to the, say the top and bottom of the D, right? The D shape. β How do you...
Greg (21:34)
Thank you. Thank you.
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (21:53)
stow that pair away and do you
have to grab both of those lines and run your hands through the bridles? How does that work?
Greg (22:00)
Yeah, thank you for asking β like emails and responses are and that that's like for sure the number one question and We haven't really put content out to address that we will in addition to here. I hope you publish it β but β I'll comment that β Well from a distance
Daniel Paronetto (22:05)
Mmm.
Greg (22:25)
It's a logical question. Like when we put it in people's hands yesterday, like when people write it, there was no question. So I think it's cool that you look at it from afar and you're like, how's that going to work? But you get on the water and you're like, yeah, it's not really a question, but, β so it's easier when it's flying here, but you, blue lines are kind of the front and they're, they're hanging out. But, β this, this orange line between the, this is the two center lines. It's the, to the front of the wing.
And even mid and rears are they're all bunched into just two lines on each side. So super few lines on the lower half of the bridle cascade offsetting the crazy number of bridle lines on the upper half. But the center twos are bunched together. So when you're riding along, you just like you look for that and you just come in and you sweep up these two and you're sliding up the two front lines. β It's not why we put this. This is more primarily for water relaunch.
Daniel Paronetto (23:08)
awesome.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (23:25)
If the next set's coming and you want this thing up in a hurry, you just give this a tug and it lifts the leading edge and pops the wing out of the water super fast. So that's what it's here for. It's also useful for like super duper low wind taxiing. You you kind of just trim on this thing and it really brings this thing, you know, if the lift is so light and lift is so little, wing is drifting back in the window, that just kind of drops the angle of attack and lets it fly forward even more.
Daniel Paronetto (23:25)
β
Mm-hmm.
Greg (23:55)
You know to ride in Wind so so much lighter than you're actually gonna be get up to be able to get on foil if you're if you're coming at you know Taxing out of a hole where you launch or things like that It's a date for those kind of things. But anyway, yeah, you can just sweep up these two four or You know when people say oh, how do you retract it when they were asking me that on the beach yesterday? My first question to them was Well, you know, I'm all tangled up in my chair here How do you retract your way?
Daniel Paronetto (24:22)
Your classic parowig
thing.
Greg (24:24)
How do you retract your weight? Because some people slide up the center front, some people like to sweep up β all four. And so yeah, you can just, you can sweep up the front four, you can sweep up the front two. You can even grab the first two bridle rows together. if you're turning on a wave or a bump and you're gonna immediately put it away, it almost doesn't matter which ones you grab, you're sliding up because the thing's neutralized if you're turning downwind.
Daniel Paronetto (24:31)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (24:54)
But
the classic like standing on the beach, I'm powered, I can't neutralize the thing. It's the front too, off the orange line. long winded answer.
Daniel Paronetto (25:03)
Yeah, no. And, and to, I think it's, it's a, you know, seeing it in person kind of thing, because you never know how what's the distance of that D grip and how far apart they are from each other. At one point I'm like, that's really like long, but looking at it in your hand, it's doesn't look that far apart at all. β yeah, that's awesome. So let's talk a little bit about this bridle system. I think you mentioned something there.
Greg (25:14)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, pretty close.
Daniel Paronetto (25:30)
In passing that I think is so important, β for the bridal system to be user friendly, but also have performance, is where do your lines start to cascade? Right. If they start to cascade too low, that is just, you know, it creates a rat nest of lines. But I noticed that you start cascading your lines super high, making that bottom end of the bridal system super
clean and I love that because it avoids tangles. It's easier for people to understand what, where to go. β tell us a little bit about like that separation. What does it do with performance? And you have a lot of cascades as well. Once you do start to do that. So tell us a little bit about that configuration, Greg.
Greg (26:17)
There's so much to talk about there. Yeah, I mean, you know, having to cascade as low as possible, fanning them out at the lowest possible angle has some β support advantages, but I think you were touching on making it as high as possible definitely has convenience advantages. So we're, you know, always trying to find that balance. β One of the...
Daniel Paronetto (26:20)
Hahaha
Greg (26:43)
One of the, you know, with the additional lines, one of the changes we made is in the type of the upper lines. And instead of having a sleeve line, we've got a splice line and to like, you know, bring a ton of lines together and not just have it in this huge bulky thing, uh, both when you're sliding over it with your hand. Yeah, go ahead.
Daniel Paronetto (26:52)
Mm-hmm.
Can you just
explain a lot of people don't know what a spliced line is? β and I've talked to people about that as well. Can you explain to our audience, like what is, what's the advantage and what a spliced line actually is?
Greg (27:16)
Yeah, I mean, I'm probably the lowest tech guy you'll talk to, but the short answer is, you know, the line slides back inside itself. There's just, there's, there's nothing. There's no bump. There's no lop. mean, obviously it's twice as thick, but you can't even tell as opposed to a sleeve line, which is nice because they reduce tangles. But you get, you've got this little like speed bump and you've, you put too many speed bumps together and it just becomes like, both doubled up in bulk plus all the
Daniel Paronetto (27:37)
The stitching,
Greg (27:45)
all the speed bumps and it turns into a lot. you know, we all experience you've got to slide up this thing and not have a hiccup. β So different choice in those β smaller diameter β spliced upper lines. So then that increases the interest in making those bridal splits as high as possible, which then, you know, gosh, like I don't even remember at this point. β
when we started going, well, what if, happens if we bundle, you know, if you've got four lines or six lines, you know, I don't even know how many lines going out for each size. What if we put these two together? Oh, what if we put all four together? What, you know, and how high or low? And, um, it was, it was just a question to explore. And in doing so lots of things happened. The center portions of the canopies are sort of a defined.
Daniel Paronetto (28:38)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (28:44)
arc shape differently in a sense than the wing tips, because there's only two on each side. So it's like center half and the outer quarters. And so they're more working as separate units. And so the wing tips, now you've got both, you've got that open arc shape at the front, and then you've got this progressive angle of attack in the rears. And so it's like this completely, I guess, unique profile. And the
Daniel Paronetto (29:06)
Mmm.
Greg (29:12)
The reason for that on a parowing is unlike what you know, paraglider in sky, kite at 12 o'clock over your head, even compared to kiting with our kiting backgrounds, you know, you're flying to kite at an angle, maybe it's 45. It's not always ripping right down at the water's edge, but parowinging, the lines are so short, you you want some blood in your hands. You want to be able to ride this thing as low as possible. So having that angle of attack, the wing tip is
What makes it really, you know, it's, what's keeping it off. Gravity wants to take it down. That angle attack of the wind tip is, creating the lift to make it feel nice and light and responsive when it's at such a low position in the sky. β but in exploring those angle attacks and those bundling, it, it, just, the process just lent toward these groupings and further up and included in that like.
Daniel Paronetto (29:45)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (30:10)
This is a completely different configuration. I we did the first joke and that's still there, but actually kind of for some pretty different purposes. But, you know, we're talking about bundling here. mean, the rear line is a single line now. So we were talking about retracting and I said the first question I asked when people were like, how do you retract? like, well, how do you retract? If it's off the back lines now, you're like scooping a single line now.
Daniel Paronetto (30:13)
Totally.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (30:38)
four or six or more. It's like, it's ridiculously easy. β Wasn't done for those purposes, but it's a huge side benefit. And so on the design side, those angles of attack bringing up that how high that break is. β It being a single line, it's closing in that angle of attack by virtue of it's at a different angle. Before we were just like shortening the back. And so it kind of crank it in, but it didn't do it in the same way.
Daniel Paronetto (30:54)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Greg (31:09)
On the design side, a lot going on. Who cares about that? Like, you know, does it ride and feel good?
Daniel Paronetto (31:14)
I love this stuff, man. like to nerd out as much as I can.
Greg (31:18)
Ha ha ha.
Daniel Paronetto (32:15)
I, one thing that you, when you were talking about, β just the bridling system and the shape of the canopy, the arc of the canopy, like I'm getting really into that these days. Like I think the arc of the canopy, β obviously like the flatter you go.
Greg (32:21)
Mm.
Daniel Paronetto (32:32)
The easier it is for you to stow. Once you actually reach the leading edge, you grab more of that leading edge because it's a flatter profile and the lines are the same length. Yeah. And, and I really, I really feel that like how far can we push, you know, the flatness of that arc to have equal lines so we can actually grab the whole leading edge. Yeah. Now I can see that.
Greg (32:38)
Hmm.
that part.
Bad angle, but yeah, they're equal length.
Daniel Paronetto (33:01)
No, no, bring it back
Greg (33:02)
Yeah
Daniel Paronetto (33:02)
because that is huge. We need to like, I experienced another pair of wing that had only four A lines and I'm like, okay, I'll try to just grab all four. And I was able to grab most of the leading edge with a very small, you know, still bulge. And I was like, oh, that was really good. And I feel like if we can make a flatter profile work, I don't know, what does that do? Is that a little bit less stable as a?
Greg (33:11)
Okay.
Daniel Paronetto (33:31)
as a shape if you go flatter.
Greg (33:35)
Well, I mean I think you could you know, ten different designers might describe it ten different ways but like You know back from the kite days like the flatter the arc shape the more projected area the more lift generating surface area you're gonna have In a textbook the reality that we fly it so low That's why I was touching on like that angle of attack at the wingtip so like maybe the more C-shaped you have the more curve you have the less projected area you have but like
then you've got a lot of acreage on a wingtip, so a lot more to control an angle of attack. So like our last generation single skins were crazy C. Part of that was related to line length, which is a whole other discussion. You know, we're talking about it in terms of responsiveness, but in terms of like low end and getting on foil and there's a lot going on. But yeah, like equal, regardless of the resulting arc shape, depending on how long the lines are, you know.
Daniel Paronetto (34:23)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (34:32)
lot of pieces to that puzzle but that when you sweep it up there isn't this big bulge catching air. β key.
Daniel Paronetto (34:37)
Yeah. Yeah.
I'm trying to push everyone I know to do flatter shapes and make them work so we can stow them easier collecting all the, the a lines at the same time. Because for me, the way I still having the two little wing tips, the leading, the, you know, the edge of the two leading edge on both sides, having to collect those that's an extra couple of seconds in the stove. And if I could just grab everything β and not have to
do that and then wrap my lines and all that stuff, β which shed a few seconds off the stove for sure. so the first thing I do now when I grab a pair of wing is I go, you know, middle a lines. How does that look? And then I do all the, the airlines and how does that look just to see how it stows? β cause that's becoming really important for me now, but, yeah, that's, that's all. So I want to move on and understand a little bit more about what we spoke about the shape, but just comparing.
Greg (35:28)
Definitely.
Daniel Paronetto (35:37)
how aspect ratio to your current models. So people can understand a little bit like how it sits in comparison to what they're used to and what they're writing. I don't know if there's even a comparison or maybe it doesn't have to be aspect ratio, but I think that's a term that people understand a little bit. β but just feel free to, to maybe do a comparison between the S three and, know, a relative similar size and you know, maybe a canaha or, you know,
the most popular model that you have that people can say, okay, I know how, what size I need to get on the S3 compared to the other ones and, and all that.
Greg (36:16)
Yeah, to the last part of that sizing, β we try to address wind range and stuff with info on the website. β There's a big difference in range and so it is a little bit of departure, but like, generally speaking, it's... β
I feel like people know what sizes work in different wind ranges and you know, like how much more effective is low and how much higher out can I go off the top? know that sort of information. β You know, these do have range changes in bigger range, but. β Was your question was, β in regards to aspect ratio and that β I smiled when you first said that because yesterday at the beach there were a couple speed demons that came back and they were calling this a race wing which.
you know, it was not an intent. β But I think all the additional bridle points and a flatter profile and some of its performance characteristics had their head in that space and they were making some big claims. But β for us, it's, know, the effectiveness for getting off, well, effectiveness for getting to the point, the wave riding, I mean, you know, and how we, what we want to do on the water. So it's for sure, β you know,
Daniel Paronetto (37:31)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (37:33)
I wouldn't even like know a number aspect ratio number to give it to you. It's, but it's a mid aspect. It's, β I don't think we even have ever even spoken to this, but the, β well, to rewind a year, we had the Maliko two and the Ka'a which were both lower aspect ratios. β and then we had the Kanaha and then we added the Pai'i'a. Those were actually the same sort of plan for them. They were the same aspect ratio. They were different design approaches, same aspect ratio.
Daniel Paronetto (37:51)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (38:03)
this is that same aspect ratio. did explore others in single skins and other categories, but you know, I mentioned earlier about blood in the hands. I mean, the lower the aspect ratio, the lower you can fly that thing. It's just more compact. Wink tips aren't catching, know, like laundry launches. just a lower aspect ratio makes everything easier. But for upwind performance,
Daniel Paronetto (38:07)
Hmm?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (38:33)
On the low side, there's an undeniable difference. So for us that canaha pa'ia, general aspect ratio, which isn't super high, it's a mid aspect, is kind of the right blend.
Daniel Paronetto (38:44)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. I, um, what you mentioned there for me is also, um, interesting. Like I like, and there's a term that we don't use enough, I think in pair winging, um, talking about how a pair of wing feels when you're moving, which is drive, like how much he wants to eat up the wind. Like I feel like the lower aspect for, um, pair wings for some reason, they feel like they don't fly enough far on the wind window. So it feels like it's draggy. It's slow.
β but when you have something that's super efficient, just eats up the wind, right? I have a feeling that this model is something that just is ultra efficient. just like slippery in the wind. Is that what you were going for? Like it's, β a refined version with the same aspect ratio, but just a little bit. Well, it looks like a lot more performance with all the cells. Like how I'm not sure I'm even talking about the right stuff, but it's that feeling of.
riding a pair of wing that wants to pull you up wind rather than riding a pair of wing that is kind of with the handbrakes on almost you know
Greg (39:58)
Yeah, and thank you for asking that. β I feel like that's been such a part of the power winging experience that, know, that. β grunt is perfect. Not up like this. Some downwind grunt, something you need to manage. And I think you brought that point up β rolling out of a topic of aspect ratio. like I was my wheels were turning because I'm going to.
Daniel Paronetto (40:09)
I don't know what it is. It's just great. Yeah.
Mmm.
Greg (40:26)
you what would I point to? And I think profile, which I think you then started coming to with the additional bridle points in that like profile, profile, profile, β like single skin coming from the year, like whatever we want to talk about to describe profiles, but to generalize single skins, like a lot of profile curve and like, you know, as a designer, I want to cheat.
I want to make something that anybody's going to throw up in the sky and it's just going to look beautiful. it's taut. This thing just looks great, but it feels like crap. The more profile curve you put in it, the deeper in the window it's going to sit. Everything is wrinkle free and beautiful, maybe even okay on the beach. But get up and get riding. Get some of the apparent wind starting to go up. And it's just like, the more you go.
Daniel Paronetto (41:21)
Mmm.
Greg (41:23)
The more you want to sheet it out, the more you like, I this is key, like the more you sheet it out, a single skin, then sitting deeper in the window where it's pulling even more like, so like that's the rub. That's why, like when I started working on double skins at that point, like, I don't think I'm going to write a single skin like ever. the forward flying in and have the power and fly forward in the window.
Daniel Paronetto (41:33)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (41:52)
Like forget it, I've gotta have that. And to have been able to get that in a single skin is maybe like, β that's why we've got one model. β And so the components of that are the front portion of this cat. Like my comment about the prettiness is, cause when I'm putting this out, I'm like, what are people gonna say? Like beyond what they feel.
Daniel Paronetto (42:02)
Yeah.
Greg (42:20)
Like are some people just going to look at this and be like haters? Cause it's got this really defined break in its profile shape. And it's there on purpose so that, and it like the results are so many and they're so super cool that the pro the front portion of the canopy is sort of a maintained angle of attack. And so it's creating forward lift. It's there. And so whatever you do with the bar, you know, you'll in the case I was just talking about it, like you're powered up, you're cheating out like, and they would move back. β
Daniel Paronetto (42:25)
Mm-mm.
Greg (42:49)
This is like still got enough lift that it's right there. She didn't sheet out. didn't move like power wings typically are moving all over the place. She didn't she'd shoot out. She didn't and they're doing a seesaw like to have something that just sits in the window and you're just shooting. It's like a kite and you're just like moving the wing tips. It's like moving all over the sky. β That's the front portion. The rear portion that it could.
Daniel Paronetto (43:04)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (43:14)
that we put this like freakish deep power in it that I think some people are to be like, what is that? Like I've got to completely change how I sheet the bar. We talked about tacking, like somebody yesterday was like, my tacks were completely thrown off because I, I'm accustomed to just projecting it through the window and it goes and this like it would just stop. And it's like, right. Cause you've got to like adjust your hand position and stuff to like, if you, you've got to keep that back line tension. If you want that drive and more importantly, steering through.
Daniel Paronetto (43:30)
Mmm.
steering.
Greg (43:42)
So it's a different handling. But anyway, in combination with that D power, it's still flying forward and we know. And then when you shoot in, that's what all those rear additional bridle points are about. And I thought about this kind of way after the fact, it took me back to like my, I'm like, what do I make of this? are people gonna make of it? How do we even talk about like, but in windsurfing, like way back in the 80s days, like we had battens and reinforcement to the profile.
in the trailing edge, in the back portion of the canopy, that's where we wanted the flatter profile, where single skins, most of them, have all this support in the front and they just let the back do what it will. And if you look at the profile shape of where that braiding support ends, it just goes to heck. So the...
Daniel Paronetto (44:16)
Interesting.
Hmm.
Greg (44:38)
of the beauty of double skins is like it's got this just beautiful perfect canopy all the way back every part of that part of that profile is driving forward β and it's nice and so we wanted to bring that support and that for that when you do sheet end well it's forward when you've got it sheeted out when you sheet it in we want that whole thing to come together and like this nice beautiful flat supported profile so it flies forward so i don't need to
Daniel Paronetto (44:48)
Yeah, the whole thing.
Mm-hmm.
And I hope people understand
this because it's so, it changes so much how the pair wing feels. β I think, yeah, like the first iterations, they were twitchy. could see it, like sometimes you're riding and you're like, Ooh, like it'll go up and down and it'll go like, you know, sometimes when you're learning, you're also using the bar as a balance point and leaning on it too much and you forget that it's a steering, you know, mechanism. So.
For people that are getting into the sport, like having the ability to sheet in, sheet out, not have too much β of that movement translated on the, the power wing moving up and down is, is super helpful, man. that beginning stage, you don't really know what you're doing, where you're touching it. one thing I want to talk about Greg is your fabrics as well. Did you keep the same, β fabric?
β I've always enjoyed riding your pair of wings because the fabric is also always so small, so thin, so easy to collapse, so easy to stow. β Did you guys maintain that for the S3?
Greg (46:08)
β Great question. Thank you. I looked over to wing like what carried over and what didn't. The lower bridle line carried over and that's it. Everything else is new, which wasn't an imperative. β I feel like people were still loving β the nature of the material we launched with and carried over to the second season.
But β yeah, this is new. I've already mentioned the thinner upper bridle line made possible by Bundling. It's a different canopy material. β The ribs are β a different lighter material. None of it is like developed by BRM. It's all borrowed from existing materials, but using the absolute best, the most premium materials we could. β And even things like
The construction, I think, β our ribs, I think are unique in that there's like no added material. The material is hemmed over and reinforced. It's two layers thick, but there's nothing else added. it just, I mean, it just collapses down to nothing. most of us are writing these to them away. So it matters. Like the experience of like, what does this thing fit into?
Daniel Paronetto (47:30)
yeah.
Greg (47:37)
Since I just had it in my hands, I'll mention like had some questions on like, well, how does this affect still and You know it you know a bar, you know if we want to call a bar two-dimensional, let's call this three-dimensional so it's more in that regard, right but You know our pyrowings don't really care I don't know if it'll still make sense to anybody else but in my mind our pyrowings don't care what's going on with our hands and our body and
Daniel Paronetto (47:43)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (48:05)
you know, what we ate for breakfast, they care about the manipulation of these different line lengths. And so like to pick on one thing, like the distance between your front and rear lines. So to put this same, and this is a pretty traditional spacing. β So to put this same thing on a bar with a nub, it's going to be at least five centimeters longer. And so that dimension, that length, since our stuff is kind of wrapping around our body and you know,
Daniel Paronetto (48:20)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (48:34)
You know that that wrap and try to get a long bar in whatever we're putting it in is is a bit of for me what defines how comfortable and easier easy it is to stow and so that shoulder length is key.
Daniel Paronetto (48:36)
You
The, since you touched on it, I also saw that you guys, β launched a vertical stash belt. And is that to accommodate for this new bar? Is, is, is that what you want to match the S3 with or do the other belts suit, you know, stowing with the S3? No problem.
Greg (49:09)
The other belts are compatible. I think the the work toward the belt β Started on a mission for larger size, but yes double surfaces, you know just twice as much stuff or like how do we how do we increase the capacity and make it easier and so the Two things that are bit different about this belt for us is one like the opening For your pocket. You don't have to stretch anything to open it the the neoprene material itself has some
structural integrity that like keeps it this open like pocket. So it's like you just aim for it and can shove it in. There's nothing like, know, it's just open. It's there. And then the vertical component of it is, as I just mentioned, like things wrapping around our body. Like this is a great dimension. You know what? I mentioned like the first stove for me was shoving up the back of my neoprene top. β It went in vertically. Like there was no like
Daniel Paronetto (49:58)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Greg (50:08)
it poking out the sides like ears, like it goes in this way. So it just always made sense. And so to try to work with that orientation and try to support a belt that kind of fits right into the arch of your back and just sits there nice. β Yeah, just made sense.
Daniel Paronetto (50:23)
Yeah, that's nice, man. The, well, did you, β this diverting a little bit from the topic of pair wings, but did you see any of the races in Luke? Did you know that there were like people racing and there's a world champion now of power winging.
Greg (50:41)
β I'm terrible at keeping up on stuff online. Just terrible, terrible. β So I'm probably on the very low end of the range of informed, but I did know it was going to happen. And I've seen a few clips. seemed like it was really light wind, but that's about all I know about it.
Daniel Paronetto (50:59)
Yeah, it was a little light.
Yeah, look, I, personal opinion is that they did a good job trying to keep, β power wing racing as true to the sport as possible by incorporating some stats stash stones, like, you know, bits of the course that you had to get rid of the power wing and pump and go down wind, which I think is great. Like if we just had a, you know, just a race race, β I think it would be a little bit less. Well, you know, it's not really true to the sport. We need to get rid of it at some point.
Greg (51:16)
Hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (51:31)
β so I'm happy that they did that and I think they're going to keep it. β my only gripe was that they could hold the pair of wing in their hands. β I wanted them to stow in an accessory because as you know, when you're racing, you know, we progress when we put these, β constraints on, on the riders because they will be on the beach trying to wrap this thing in 10 different ways to put it in an accessory. The accessories will get better.
Greg (51:39)
That's fair.
Daniel Paronetto (52:01)
You know, the, stowing would get better, all that stuff. So maybe next time they'll, they'll do a full stow, but, β I was so happy that they had those stow zones and stash zones and, it was a success. They did a great job, man. β if you have a chance to have a look at it, definitely, definitely check it out.
Greg (52:01)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I am with you on that. Last season here on Maui, we have a pedal, a move and a fundraiser, charity fundraiser. And then there was the first power wing division. So it's a downwind race along the coastline of Maui. And it was it came as a total surprise to me that people were like crazy, upsizing their power wings and just flying it the whole way down the coast. And I did not see that coming. I'm like,
I'm not really sure what to make of that. So from that perspective, can appreciate and even forget what I was going to say, your point about it progressing to performance, that's cool. β The only other thing I can add on the race side is I just saw online somewhere that in San Francisco, like the Thursday night races, they added a power wing division. And for me, that's super cool because
Daniel Paronetto (52:49)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (53:18)
once I started down this power wing quest of like this crazy idea and is it even going to be a thing like from the beginning I'm like this is going to blow up racing and it's been a total shock to me that it hasn't come sooner because I feel like that's its DNA so I feel like there's a space for both and I think the pure sailing category of this could like go to the moon
Daniel Paronetto (53:44)
Yeah. Places like San Francisco, lend itself to that. Even here, even in Melbourne, there's so many, um, kite foilers that are on Ram Air kites and they're doing the racing thing. And now those guys are getting into power. Those guys, I think they, cause they were all the beach in the same place and we poke at each other all the time and they were poking at me for years. And now they're all buying their first little pair of wings. They're on their downwind boards. And I'm like,
Greg (53:55)
Cool.
Daniel Paronetto (54:14)
Wow, your gear changed, man. So they're coming around and I think there's a certain wind strength that for them is like, I think I might pair a wing. It's too, it's probably too strong. So it gets them in the water more often. so yeah, man, things are changing around here. So Greg, I'm conscious of your time, man. It's Sunday, β in Maui it's Monday here. So, β I'm, glad I got through this interview with no coffee. It was kind of hard for me. β
But man, it's always an honor to talk to you, a pleasure to have you on the podcast. You're always welcome to come back and I'm sure you're gonna have some crazy stuff for us to talk about very soon. Can't wait for that. β Admire you a lot, man, and keep doing all these amazing, crazy, innovative products, because everybody wants to touch one now, and that's what it's all about, isn't it?
Greg (55:05)
Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you. I appreciate you having me on. I was texting with my brother this morning, coordinating a session after this. It's Sunday. Yeah, Sunday afternoon. Let's get on the water. And he's like, Oh, say hi to Dan for me. And I replied back like, have you talked to Dan? Like, and he's like, he's like, No, but I've seen him so much on his podcast. I feel like I know the guy. So, you know, there you go. Thank you for what you do. Like, yeah, people appreciate it. Myself.
Daniel Paronetto (55:18)
nice.
Not yet.
Yeah, awesome, man.
Let's get the information out. That's what it's all about. Make this board as big as it can go. So let's see what happens, man. I'm keen to see more people with the S3s now. And if we see each other in hood, it'll be amazing as well. Try to get into that last week of June there. I'll be around. Good to see you, Greg. Thanks for coming on, man. Bye-bye.
Greg (55:50)
Yeah.
Awesome. Thank you, Dan.
