Dan (01:31)
Welcome to the Lab Rat for the podcast. My name is Dan and today we have the RD team from Ozone, Dom Zimmerman, Axo Mazella. Welcome back. You guys are here to present a new pairwing.
Dom (01:44)
Thank you for having us again.
Dan (01:45)
Well, I
I always
enjoy when you say, we have to organize a call because we have something new and this time, like every other time, you guys came up with something that we haven't seen before. the afterburner, new parawing in the lineup. I wanna start with like a little bit of the journey that you guys go through before you actually launch a pairowing and just trying to understand what
was missing in the para wing lineup with the power pack and the pocket rocket that prompted you guys to say, Hey, let's explore something new and how did you get to the afterburner?
Dom (02:28)
Yeah, that program kind of started out of just out of an experiment really. We were fiddling around with a lot of ideas like half double skin, full double skin prototypes and we always were missing the accessibility on those designs and we find them quite...
hard to deal with and they weren't really easily performing in the low end conditions and we were trying really hard at some stage I kind of put everything aside from those ideas and I just kind of started off with you know with what now became the afterburner really. A lot more ribs, higher aspect ratio, still single skin design just to keep the accessibility in the light wind.
and in the bottom end and I think we had the first prototype in October, November last year and then kept developing all the sizes from there and worked on refining the trim and stuff. So it was out
of the search and the...
the idea of having a maximum performance wing especially on the upwind so that was our goal to make like car shuttles and stuff just like obsolete
because none of us really liked the idea and we never really did do that. We just always went out for doing laps and go upwind, downwind. We never really car shutted or did it once or twice and it's just like the organization behind it is just a nightmare. So and you're
Dan (04:15)
Mm.
Dom (04:16)
missing so much time on the water at the end. Yes, you do your downwind run, but then you're kind of done and then you have to retrieve cars and stuff.
you know, half the day is gone by just doing that and you're missing water time basically. So we didn't really like that. So we tried to increase the performance and also like the sensation of going upwind, not having to battle as hard against the wind, but kind of having a nice flow together with the wind, upwind and kind of getting that locked in feeling as many of the people I used to know from the foil kites.
as well. And that's kind
Dan (04:56)
And
Dom (04:56)
of how the project started,
Dan (04:59)
I
like that because well, I just came from a session with the afterburn. I was on the three six today and the amount of wind that it can take is absurd because I I I I'm gonna struggle to find the top end of these pairings, I think. it's gonna s be hard to max them out. but I think you've touched on this already. Like I want to let everybody very aware of like who is this pairowing for?
Because I think you mentioned a few things already in, you know, how you got to the afterburner that I think kinda sums up who the this parawing will be really well used for.
Dom (05:40)
Yes, you know it's definitely for the experienced rider. It's not the first timers wing. We've got other models in the range for that. But for those people that might even be familiar with foil kites or at least have know para winged for a good season or so.
It's definitely, it's got a lot of performance and it is accessible but you still need to know how to handle all the bridle lines and there's more on the afterburner of those and you need to know how you...
properly packing and be able to have a nice and clean redeploy on those wings. And then yeah, if you're looking for maximum upwind performance, might it be to go downwind runs or even on flat water lakes or whatever, it's just
Dan (06:31)
Mm.
Dom (06:32)
good fun to ride around with, cruise around with. Yes, and it's still easy, very easy to pack and redeploy as well at the same time.
Dan (06:44)
Yeah. Yeah,
I was I was surprised because I knew what was coming and in my impressions I'm like okay here we go. I'm going to you know have a difficult time stowing a difficult time on the bottom end, which was really surprising, the bottom end of this thing. I think there's really nothing that it lacks with when you compare it to like a pocket rocket of the same size. They're really, really good. And I was talking to Axel before you joined. today was really in during the session I
I found that there is a sweet spot when you're trying to get up. You know, you're trying to position the parawing to pull you at a like a forty-five degree angle, let's say. And you go a little bit further up, a little bit further down, it doesn't work. But when you get to that point where it just matches the wind, it just yanks you out of the water so fast that I don't know, but I feel like I can get up on the three six easier than the pocket rocket three six. And we'll we'll leave it at that for now. Let
Dom (07:43)
you
Dan (07:43)
Let the the
the people get their own ideas, but I was really impressed with the bottom end. So let's have a look at this thing.
Dom (07:49)
Yeah,
and Patrick were saying the same thing in the call the other day.
Dan (07:54)
Well yeah, like I think there's
there's something to the way this parawing pumps. Like when you're actually pulling on the parawing, it recovers from a pump so fast. Other para wings like it takes a little time for it to get that you know, the pressure back into it. This one is like immediate, so you can pump so fast and I thought it was very impressive. Like I'm like, is this easier than the pocket rocket? I thought I was a little bit
having an easier time with it today. But we'll start we'll start showing the pairing because people are interested to see how this thing looks. I went with a different color scheme this time. I love the custom colors. I always froth on these things.
Dom (08:39)
Mm-hmm.
Dan (08:40)
I decided to not go with any leading edge, a different color, but obviously the color scheme has leading edge and that circle as an option that always helps people identify it. But
Because this I know how to pack a pair with my eyes closed by now. I decided to go with this color scheme. But let's start talking about the bar. We'll work our way up. We'll talk about the bridal system, the canopy shape. But let's start with the bar DOM. There's definitely something very different in this bar when you compare it to the to the other models. take us through a little bit what this bar is made of and and the overall shape of this bar.
Dom (09:18)
So this bar which you can see here in the picture, it's a monoblock carbon bar. We went for one size which is a 35 centimeter from bridle point to bridle point on the front to the back.
and then we can see we have a little extension on the front which makes it quite nice to as you can see on the picture here to rest your thumb on while riding
Dan (09:40)
Mm.
Dom (09:40)
but also you can put your index finger in front of the front lines and this gives you a bit more d-power control we'd say and a bit more grip flying it one-handed which is quite nice the bar is
EVA wrapped with a nice texture so it's very grippy and identified by the red and the grey front and back just to know which way around the right way around it is and yeah it's super light super minimalistic we liked like our idea and our approach was to
have it light, minimalistic so it packs down small and it's not adding bulk to your package when when stowing away pretty much.
Dan (10:30)
it gave me a really direct feel as well for the Power Wing. I feel like this Power Wing steers very, very fast. It feels like a Formula One car. zero delays and I don't know if that's a function of the bar or the bridles or both, but thirty-five centimeters is surprising. They didn't feel that that big when I was packing it down. I think it it felt felt all right for thirty-five centimeters. maybe it's the diameter that helps a little bit with that.
Dom (10:59)
Mm.
Dan (11:01)
but when we talk about bars, we don't have any connection systems in this photo, but we do have some new accessories that are worth talking about as well that go on the bar, some new har harness loops. So can you talk us through a little bit of what options are you providing now for people who want to have a little harness loop on their bar?
Dom (11:24)
So we do have multiple harness loop options by now. The most common one is our single fixed harness line, fixed loop harness line, I think it's called correctly, which just goes around on one spot on the bar and then you've got a PU covered line that you can easily hook in and out of your harness hook.
That's kind of the
Axel (11:53)
and
Dom (11:53)
common one that we used to have for two years now. Yes, Axel?
Axel (11:58)
and this
one comes directly with the afterburner.
Dan (12:04)
That comes with the
pairwing now. It com yeah, that's nice.
Dom (12:05)
Yeah, yes
it does. So that's attached to your afterburner bar already.
Dan (12:15)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (12:16)
There's three other options. One other option is having the same style of harness line but with a two point connection to the bar.
so you can have your back attachment further back that allows you for easier angle of attack trim on the fly by just setting it to the angle around on your harness hook. And then we have both options as I talk through with a bungee loop.
which is the single one is super minimalistic. It's a tiny little loop like this that then expands to 20-25 centimeters or longer ones depending on the length you're choosing. We've got the same length available in 20-25, 30 and 35 centimeter length on all of them. And then additionally, and the last one is the bungee one with a double attachment basically.
Dan (13:18)
I like that.
Yeah, I'm curious to to try the single
Dom (13:20)
Mm-hmm.
Dan (13:22)
bungee one. I think that'll be because I I f I think for the amount of time I spend going up win, like in short laps, it's nice to have something that's minimal, doesn't get away with your stove, like if you're doing a lot of stoves during your session as well. So that's a cool option. I'm gonna try that one. I haven't seen that one before.
Dom (13:42)
It's a bit harder and needs the second hand to hook in and out or hook
Dan (13:45)
Yeah.
Dom (13:46)
in, pretty much, just to open the loop a little bit to get it into your
Dan (13:51)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (13:51)
harness hook.
The unhooking, yes you need to first slacken off the extended bungee, get down to that. While the single harness, fixed harness line loop, it's stiff and easy to hook in and out, within a split of a second. So the bungee requires a bit more technique at getting used to it, but then when packing away it is more minimalistic.
Dan (14:18)
Yeah. Keen to try that one. Keen to try the double as well. I don't I haven't tried a double connection to the bar, but I'm imagining that it allows you to just trim the pairwing with a different feel. That could be good.
Dom (14:31)
We had a lot of feedback from people using it and liking it so we designed one and added it to the range.
Dan (14:38)
Nice.
Dom (14:39)
It's very minimalistic around the bar, well grows onto the bar without having to undo any lines or whatever. So it's a pretty
Dan (14:46)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (14:47)
neat system.
Dan (14:50)
Cool. Let's move on to the bridal system because very similar bridal system that we can see with the bowl line, you know, the different the separation of the external A lines to the middle A lines. a lot of, you know, good carry-on from the power pack that then went onto the pocket rocket and now the afterburner. Tell us a little bit about your lines, because
Once you start the cascade, those lines get a lot thinner, don't they? when you compare it to the other models.
Dom (15:24)
Yeah exactly, we're using the same material as we do on the Power Pack and on the Pocket Rocket for the lower lines but then once it splits into the canopy on the uppers it's using a bit of a thinner line just to reduce the diameter and enhance the performance, reduce the drag. So these lines are, I'm not even sure about the diameter, think it's 0.7 or something.
and bit thinner but since you're very close to the canopy already and you do have quite a lot of them in your hand
Dan (16:02)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (16:03)
due to the line layout we can see every rib is supported on these afterburners so there's a lot more lines going into the canopy so they're not really burning your hands or causing rush or anything just because they're also quite short it's just another
depending on the size
Dan (16:24)
Mm.
Dom (16:25)
but it's another 60 to 40 centimeter I think
Dan (16:29)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (16:30)
that you gather in there. yeah we kept the... yeah.
Dan (16:32)
Yeah, once you get to that yeah, to that point of the
stove, you already have a bunch of lines. I think it's that initial pull that if you just have w
Dom (16:41)
Mm.
Dan (16:42)
one or two couple lines, even like just four that are thin, that creates a a bit of abrasion, but they're so far up that once you're there you already have a bit of a clump of lines in your hand.
Dom (16:53)
Yeah,
and you're well de-powered as well on the wing already. You it's already deformed
Dan (16:56)
Mm, yeah, good point.
Dom (16:58)
and then kind of came together, yeah. And then obviously, you know, the single front line that we introduced on the power pack and now have on the pocket rocket as well, that also transfers and transferred into the afterburner, as you said. So
the whole system is pretty similar to the pocket rocket.
Dan (17:19)
Hmm.
Dom (17:20)
that a lot of people will know.
Dan (17:20)
Yeah, I felt at home straight away with that. It it felt like,
you know, you know where the other models how the other models work. This one was like, yeah, I know exactly what I'm doing here. Didn't take much to get used to it. And the line length is a little bit longer. this one is a three six and I can get it within my span. but I'm imagining I didn't try the the four three yet, but I'm imagining the four three for me might be a double reach already.
Dom (17:48)
Axel is it really? I think we kind of try to keep them in a maximum
Dan (17:52)
Similar.
Dom (17:53)
arm span but yes definitely on the 5 and the 5-7 and bigger 6-5 they're getting you need to do a double rep
Dan (18:03)
Mm.
Axel (18:04)
We
try to get the three and the three six a little bit longer to be able to count down the wing as well going all over the place in the windy
Dan (18:17)
Mm.
Axel (18:17)
conditions. While four three to six five we try to reduce as much as possible because we want to reach a hard span. But obviously because there is a more aspect ratio compared to the perfect rotates, two lines are
That's right, people.
Dan (18:36)
The so the the th the four three has a little bit more lines than the three six or they're very are they close? If they're close I think an arm length would do 'cause I can get this one with an arm length.
Dom (18:48)
think you should still be able to, depends on your arm length, you should still be able to grab it by one arm reach on the 4-3.
Dan (18:55)
Nice.
Axel (18:56)
Yeah,
Dan (18:56)
Yeah, that does like go ahead, sorry, Axel.
Axel (18:59)
in general, we're talking about a few centimeters more compared
Dan (19:03)
Mm.
Axel (19:03)
to the rest of it.
Dan (19:05)
Well, you started to talk about this already, Axel, but definitely a high aspect shape, moving on to the canopy shape now. is this even higher aspect than the Pocket Rocket V one? Or is it a similar aspect ratio?
Axel (19:23)
question. No, think it's still higher.
Dom (19:26)
higher. Yeah,
Dan (19:29)
God, it's higher but it it it
Dom (19:29)
it's quite quite a bit higher.
Dan (19:31)
it's funny because I don't know, maybe it's the wing tip because the wingtips are a lot thinner, they're not as square as they used to be. They come
Dom (19:38)
Mm.
Dan (19:39)
and they taper in a lot. That it doesn't feel like that high aspect.
Dom (19:45)
Yes, you can't go crazy aspect ratio on these things just because you've got so short lines and the danger of catching water all the time when you're riding along. So we worked on the aspect ratio quite a bit to have the maximum or one of the maximum possible but not going too crazy so it becomes a handful and annoying touching your tip on the water all the time.
But it's still relative, know, para wings are low aspect wings really compared to any other kites or wings out on the field, yeah, or you know, even handheld wings, they need to be low aspect ratio just in general. But obviously, yeah, it is a bit higher than the Pocket Rocket V1 even.
Dan (20:37)
Yeah. I wanna play this video, Dom. I showed this to Axel in the f the beginning of our call just while we were waiting for you. This is something that I did today and I'm not sure if I should be doing this or not to this pairwing. if I continue the video, this is just a normal stow. There is there are some holes in the baton
That I found were really, really good to stow. But I think this might be something that might screw up over time because I don't know if you guys this was built for purpose or not, but I'm sure people will put their hands into these battons like I'm doing. Should we be doing this or not?
Dom (21:26)
Definitely
not, no. That's not what they designed for. Just seeing you now doing that is like, yeah, okay, I see why you're doing it, but it's not actually built for it. It's just to reduce the weight because there's no...
cut out triangles, there's no load on the material so there's
Dan (21:48)
Mm.
Dom (21:48)
no need for it to be there but it's not designed as such, we haven't been testing it to hold it like that so you probably will be wearing the rip material, know, might be
Dan (22:00)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (22:01)
ripping the whole edges and fray them a bit more so I do definitely not recommend holding it like that at all
Dan (22:09)
This is me. This was today actually.
Dom (22:10)
but it's a... right
Dan (22:13)
and I was trying to stow and just getting like more familiar with the stow and just holding it like that made it so easy to stow that I'm like, I need to talk to Dom about this because you know, I I actually thread my index through it and then it makes
Dom (22:28)
Mm-hmm.
Dan (22:29)
the stow very, very easy. and I was just timing
Dom (22:32)
Mm.
Dan (22:33)
it because I have a benchmark of the sizes and
The three six pocket rocket is around a ten eleven second stow on land. and it was very similar. So I d like people that are, you know, I'm going to lose a lot of my stowing potential with this para wing. I don't feel that that was an issue at all. And I think we're getting better at these things, you know, like we're getting better at stowing, our technique's getting better, so you can push a little bit more the design and we can still make it work.
Dom (23:03)
yes but still you know it's it's up to everyone but to use those holes but I it's not recommended and not designed for that
Dan (23:14)
Okay, 'cause we
well, I mean, we just came from our call with, you know, other people that are using this power wing as well and nobody talked about this and I wanted to bring this up because I know people will stick their hands in them. So it's good to know that they're not billed for it, but you know, don't do it then. Let's just leave it at that.
Axel, I want to go to you a little bit, man, because this pairwing was really I saw it for the first time when you went to the SFT. I saw a few photos and I'm like, there's something new. and and then you went to Deffy and you had an amazing race in Deffy. And I'm not sure if everybody's aware, but maybe take us through that race, man. Like a race with over
Six hundred, seven hundred riders? How many riders were in that race?
Axel (24:07)
Yeah, the first was the DefiWin which was 1200 windsurfers and now they did a new version for the wingers and we were 800 on the start line and they opened the registration to ParaWings now. So yeah, we were a lot.
Dom (24:27)
Thank
Dan (24:27)
That's crazy.
I can't even imagine a start with eight hundred people. I don't know how you guys don't kill each other.
Axel (24:33)
Yeah,
the stop frame was pretty big, like more than 300 or 400 meters.
Dan (24:40)
w tell us a little bit about that race, man. Like where were you positioned at the start? Did you just fly through everyone or you had to come through the pack a little bit?
Axel (24:49)
No, it's a rapid start, which means there is a buoy and there is a boat crossing the start line to open it from leeward to windward. And then all the people have to start behind this boat and go for racing.
and all of the fastest guys start at the bottom of the start line. Obviously, this is where the start line opens first.
and then you go for a really long reaching, you go for 10 km reaching one way, so on the right side, and then you have to turn the buoy and come back 10 km, so that's one lap, and sometimes we've done two laps. So one race is either 20 km or 40 km.
Dan (25:41)
Wow.
How how long does it take to do twenty kilometers on an afterburner?
Axel (25:48)
can't remember really well but I 20 km we done it in half an hour, more or less.
Dan (25:55)
Man, that is
so freaking fast. That is how
Axel (25:59)
Yeah.
Dan (26:00)
what about like speed wise, what what speeds are you guys getting on the para wing?
Axel (26:06)
So first of all, we are on the ridge, which is the fastest way you can go on any sail, boat, or whatever, water sports. during the competition, I went around 30 to 32 knots.
Dan (26:27)
Mm-hmm.
Axel (26:28)
We mainly on a 5 and 5.7 in 20, 25 knots.
Dom (26:37)
You
Axel (26:37)
The goal
on this race was to push the gear as the limit. Obviously this wing is not designed for racing, it's designed to, as Dom says, to make a better upwind performance, to spend less time upwind but more time downwind. But because we've seen during our testing that there is some possibilities and I'm a racer in my background, I wanted to push that even forward to see the limit. So that's why we came.
came
to the DeFi and just tested in real conditions.
Dan (27:14)
That's insane, man. I'm curious to like compare a little bit your kite foiling speed to your pairwing riding speed. What was the fastest you've gone on the afterburner and the fastest you've gone on a kite foil?
Axel (27:31)
The fastest on the kite for me was 43 knots. Some people managed to reach 45, which got even a smaller spline than me.
Dan (27:43)
God. That's crazy.
Dom (27:44)
Hahaha
Axel (27:47)
On the para wing,
Once again, just for testing, I went into 25 to 30 knots on small sizes after a burner during a winter session at home and I managed to go to 38 knots with it.
Once again, I did that previously on the kite foil. I was used to go that fast on the kite foil. I was wearing helmets and back vest, everything. I have a
Dan (28:21)
Yeah, good point.
Axel (28:22)
T as well on the water. And I was using also my kite foil racing foil, which
Dan (28:30)
Hm.
Axel (28:30)
I've riding it since five years now. The only new parameters was the power wing that I wanted to push as fast as possible.
So I would say that I was in good condition to do it.
Dan (28:47)
Man, I just I just conver i forty four knots is eighty one kilometers an hour, is that right?
Axel (28:54)
Yeah.
Dom (28:57)
Yeah.
Dan (28:59)
That is freaking fast. And then thirty-eight knots is seventy kilometers an hour. So this parawing can go 70 Ks an hour. So when I was out there today, I was like, I don't think I'm gonna reach the top end of this parawing. I'm not. I'm definitely not. I'm not even gonna come close.
Dom (29:14)
You
Dan (29:17)
Wow, that's impressive, man. but I think what you're you're saying there is yeah, this is not a racing parawing, but there is a concept that is related to racing.
that I think is really important for people to understand. and we're gonna start using this more and more and I think on our parawing vernacular, that is VMG. So velocity made good. And can you explain to people a little bit what that is so everybody's aware
Axel (29:44)
Yeah, so because of all of the parameters we talked before, reduced the drag, a bit more high aspect ratios, the fact is give us more performance. What we try to fight against when we are going upwind is the wind. We definitely can go straight facing the wind on any sailboat, it's not possible. You have to go left and right. And that's why the speed and the angle is really important.
also sailing and this which is giving to you the EMG Velocity Make Good which is the perfect combination in between the angle and the speed.
So you can go as fast as possible, but if you don't go as high against the wind, your velocity is definitely not good. And the opposite is also true, like if you're facing the wind but you're going super slow, this is not a good combination as well. So that's why we have this EMG existing now. It's the perfect middle in between going fast and going high against the wind.
Dan (30:55)
I like that 'cause a lot of people will be using this to do longer downwinds and I'm I'm thinking, you know, ten kilometers and over. So with this para wing you can go fast and upwind at the same time rather than just going slow, upwind, or very fast, but not making ground upwind. So it's that perfect combination. And obviously it takes a good rider to feel that as well. So you're not going too slow or too fast, but the gear will allow you to
to explore that to the maximum capacity. And that's I think it's important for people to know that.
Axel (31:31)
and higher your VMG number will be and more it's going to be efficient and you're going to spend less time going upward.
Dan (31:42)
Yeah.
another thing that we spoke about on our call, and this was with I think Patrick Rebstock brought this up, that this parawing is giving us kite foiling feelings. And I feel it is because of you know, the speed. And one thing that when I started to kite foil, what it unlocked was you going to, you know
further places than just staying in a high performing little spot doing wake style tricks. I started to kite foil and I started to go to different beaches on the bay, have a coffee and come back, you know, and do fifteen kilometers, twenty kilometers. and I wasn't even downwinding, I was just riding. so I feel that this kitefoiling feel, I definitely I'm getting so much of of that with this parawing as well. And it's not even summer where we have, you know,
wind that lasts for a whole afternoon. So I feel that the distance that we will travel with pair with parawings will increase and different areas that you might have not thought, you know, that you could explore, I think will become definitely explorable now with this parawing.
Axel (33:52)
Yeah, I completely agree with you. That's the thing I have as well, like the afterburner open possibilities, open more playground on the sea. And as you said, you can now be able to turn around some islands and some spot that you never reached before on a normal bowing. And this is exactly the same on the kite for like...
BMG is way higher than any other sports and we can easily reach a point way faster than before.
Dan (34:29)
Yeah, and I I got well I'm I have the the three six and the five seven for now and I think I wanted to try the five seven. I've never tried a para wing that big. I tried the five before, but I had a feeling that a very efficient parawing would be really good in light winds. and this is not disappointing. I feel one of the things that was really impressive was this pumping, and we spoke about it, the recovery from the pump and you know, ready for you to pull again on that bar.
so that's making my light wind riding super efficient now. And I think for bigger guys as well, this will be super helpful. You know, the north of ninety kilo rider, I think they will benefit from this powerwing too.
Dom (35:14)
Yeah, I agree. Especially, you know, usually these guys are also a bit bigger and maybe a bit taller and, you know, they can cope with a bit more line length as well at the same time. So even on the 6.5, you know, you can, a big guy on a 6.5 is like, yeah, easy, easy stowing, easy packing.
Dan (35:35)
Hmm. and I also had a session on I was on the pocket rockets, but I wished I was on the afterburner. it was a really windy, like the really windy day, but it was twenty to thirty five knots. So I was
Axel (35:51)
you
Dan (35:52)
swapping pairings in the water consistently going from one size to another size. But there was also like eight foot of swell. So it was a big day. and I think
the range that these para wings are giving me, like the three six, I could ride in thirty knots today, no worries. And I would have been pushing it a lot on, you know, the power, the power pack or the pocket rocket. So the range I think now, and I don't know about what you guys think about it, but I think people can almost skip a size on their quiver because
you have so much room on the top end. Like you can maybe skip the size and just get two instead of three pair wings.
Dom (36:34)
Yeah, we agree on that pretty much. The
Dan (36:37)
Hmm.
Dom (36:38)
top end has increased so much so the overlap from the sizes definitely do exist now while on the previous model you almost have to have all sizes to have a perfect quiver and right now you can easily get away with a 3.6 and then jump onto the 5 and you probably will feel like you can downsize from the 5.7 to the 3.6 straight away even.
you know if you're pushing both to the top and bottom end. So yeah, the bigger the range gets the more overlap you do have in the sizes, the less sizes you do need. And as you said you haven't explored the top end of the 3.6 yet and you've been into
Dan (37:23)
Not even close.
Dom (37:25)
30 knots and plus the same for us I mean
We hardly ride the three meters, only when it's like top 35 and then you feel like, yeah, that's good now. It comes to a life, it becomes fun.
Dan (37:39)
So t
tell us a bit about the sizing then dom. I don't know what sizes are you are you guys doing the smaller sizes? I don't need I don't even know if you need the smaller sizes on these pair wings.
Dom (37:50)
That's what we decided on not doing at the moment. We'll see how the demand comes along but at the moment the smallest size is the 3 meter which we haven't really reached the top end yet and we've been out on it to 40 knots or almost 40 knots.
The other sizes are up to the top. We have got the usual sizes as we do have on the Power Pack and the Pocket Rocket as well. Next one is a 36, 43, 55, 57 and then we do have a 6.5 just because...
the low end on these things is quite good and you can have a lot of fun with something around 10 knots on a 6.5 depending on your weight and foil size obviously but even to get going for Axel and me in 8 knots on the 6.5 is possible on a small sinker board so it's
And it's a lot of fun. There's a lot of light wind riding happening everywhere. know, people always ask for bigger, bigger, just because they might be on the lake or the conditions just like are marginal. Some like to be very powered. So we added the 6.5 mainly because also the wind can take it. It's like you've got so much deep power that, you know, you're not going to be overpowered within a increase of five knots wind strength or whatever.
Dan (39:19)
Mm.
Dom (39:20)
So.
Dan (39:22)
Worth when I when I think about the depower in this afterburner, I'm feeling a very different feel than like how I'm depowering with the pocket rocket. And I think I'm gonna transition a little bit of the skills that I'm building now with the afterburner into the pocket rocket riding. Like I feel that the afterburner, when you're overpowered, like sheeting out, you know, like and just sheeting out as much as you can, it doesn't react that well to to that. It reacts better for you just to lean
against it and that will result in you going up wind like crazy. And as soon as you do that, it just it goes to the edge of the wind window and it just kills the power like super
Dom (40:03)
.
Dan (40:03)
fast. So I think for people that are interested in the afterburner, understanding a little bit about how it rides in comparison to the pocket rocket is important. I don't know Dom or or Axel if you feel the same thing, but I'm feeling that I'm depowering a little bit more with my
edge rather than, you know,
Dom (40:22)
Mm-hmm.
Dan (40:23)
just letting go of the the brake lines.
Dom (40:27)
Yes, that's true. It's just like, and that's a similar feeling on a race kite or know, race foil kite as well. If you're depowering on the bar, you're not having that immediate effect, but once you then edge against it, it just keeps on shooting to the edge of the wind window and that's what the afterburner does as well, which is due to the reduced drag and very efficient canopy.
just you your edge against it and it shoots to the edge of the wind window where that loses most of the power.
Dan (40:59)
I think that's probably the ride technique that I wasn't using before or I wasn't using as much. but I'm gonna start using that with the pocket rocket as well, 'cause this it's just a better way of riding. I think i I'll be a little bit more limited with the pocket rocket, but
Dom (41:13)
it won't be shooting
as fast to the edge of the wind window, you know, the pocket rocket,
just because it's got more drag, so just the power pack. So any low drag design actually is better for that kind of technique.
Dan (41:29)
Yeah, and low when you say low drag, it reminds me of something that we spoke on the call as well. And I think Patrick again said this there's a big revolution happening now in foiling with masts, skinny masts, super efficient foils. And when you go from whatever you're riding to these new, you know, setups, the
Dom (41:49)
Mm.
Dan (41:50)
difference is ridiculous, you know, and it's really hard to go back and ride anything else. I I have a feeling that like
of this slipperiness in the air with the afterburner. Like it's I haven't ridden the pocket rocket since I got the afterburners. And I don't know what that's gonna feel like, but I feel like it's that next level of just efficiency in in the water. Like you just you know, your speed and your efficiency up when is just effortless with this thing.
Dom (42:21)
Korea.
Axel (42:22)
I
think also the afterburners allow us to ride in a higher wind range. Taking the example of Ken and Johnny, they are now able to ride a smaller board and smaller forest.
We also go faster on the water and have more fun. As soon as you're taking smaller foils and smaller boards you can do better carves, surfing waves better. Tendons are also quicker, like giving you more possibilities to having fun.
Dan (43:00)
Yeah. I speak a lot with Ken these days. I message him every day about something that I have in my mind and he answers me and now I think his he's gonna keep the fifty three liter board, I think it is, as his only board. And he's he's
Axel (43:15)
which is really important.
Dan (43:17)
it's super small, but he's
Dom (43:18)
Thank
Dan (43:19)
like he's like, I can't believe you're still riding eighty liters some days. I'm like, Well, we have sharks here, man. I don't wanna be shark bait out there and be sinking and not getting up.
You know, if it's a fifty knot difference between the top end and the low end of the day, I'm taking an A board, man. I don't wanna be shark, bait.
But I want to ask you guys something now. So we have power packs, pocket rockets, afterburners. What's the future of the lineup going to look like? How are you guys gonna push, you know, the power pack to its limits? How are you planning on pushing the pocket rocket to it to its limits? And I think the afterburner now is, you know, at the start of its journey, but how are you guys going to position these para wings and push them?
To the max now.
Dom (44:12)
They pretty much are in their category and if you're at going top to bottom or bottom up let's say the Powerpeg it's definitely an easy entry level short laps run powering where know stowing efficiency short lines and not so much the speed and the upwind counts
So it's very easy for any beginner to get on. There's a lot less lines, a lot less canopy. Everything is very simple and basic. And then going up to the pocket rocket, it's the do it all, all around. can, even a beginner can start using it. Intermediate to expert has a good time on it, can push very hard, still very easy to stow.
and good angle, good VMG still. But then, obviously the afterburner is then the expert and the high VMG wing, higher angle upwinds, higher speeds in general. think, you know, looking at, and I don't want to push people towards it, but I think looking at how fast this sport has been developed.
Dan (45:40)
Mm.
Dom (45:40)
or has
developed over the last years. People seem to be spending a lot of time on the water going, you know, getting the grip on para wings. I think a lot of people will be ready for a wing like the afterburner
Dan (45:55)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (45:56)
and will be enjoying the additional performance in it and will accept the slightly lower, you know, handy packaging and stowing ability.
even though you've just shown that it's almost as easy to stow as the Pocket Rocket. But I
Dan (46:15)
Yeah, it's
Dom (46:16)
still think with the additional lines, there's more cells, more ribs, more material to it. It's a bit bigger package as well. think people will accept that just for the benefit of actually having an enjoyable ride upwind.
Dan (46:35)
Yeah. I think people really need to see this thing in person because when I hear you talk about it, I you know, I was like, I'm gonna give up a lot and with it in your hands and doing the ro proper stowing technique or just, you know, having that ability to stow with whatever method you use, I didn't feel that much of a difference between the pocket rocket and this. I think the line length was probably the the biggest different I the difference I felt when it comes to the canopy and the the package.
I didn't think it was that much of a, you know, you're not leaving too much on the table there, for what you're gaining. But I always like to ask this to you guys. and you
Dom (47:18)
You
Dan (47:18)
can caveat this with the style of writing and the the you know, the board and the foils that you use. But last time I gave you guys three para wings to choose from if you were building a quiver. This time I'm I'm I'm
Asking you guys to build a quiver with only two para wings. So if you could only build a pair a quiver with two para wings, which models and sizes would you use? And you can give your explanation as to why as well if you want to.
Dom (47:50)
So first.
Axel (47:52)
Well, I'm a racer first, so...
Dan (47:55)
Yeah,
he's gonna get a six point five and
Axel (47:59)
No, for me, because I'm running every time in my own spot, is windy conditions, I would take 3.6 afterburner and 5.
many years.
Dan (48:16)
What
what's your sport like, Axel? Where do you ride normally?
Axel (48:19)
I'm living in Hier, which is on the south coast of France, in between Marseille and Nice. So we have a lot of Mistral wind, which is the most popular wind here, which is blowing at least to 25-30 knots average. If the Mistral is not here, I'm going for kite falling or testing some tube kites or something else.
So for me, when I'm power winging in my days off, what I would like to go is for the afterburner.
Dan (48:50)
Okay. So you would go after burner three, six, and five.
Axel (48:54)
I would love to go for a trip but it's not windy enough at my home. I
Dan (48:57)
Yeah.
Axel (48:58)
should have to go
Dom (48:59)
You
Axel (48:59)
to Tarifa or living in Wood River for that.
Dom (49:03)
2-4 might you mean?
Dan (49:03)
Nice. Dom. Yeah.
Axel (49:05)
Okay.
Dom (49:06)
Yes, you know for the places that we write I can only draw in the same quiver as Axel suggested
Dan (49:14)
my god.
Dom (49:16)
Mauritius usually where we write the most or where I write the most S3-6 is pretty good it's usually spot on and then the 5 as the backup and the backpack and
Yes, that's usually what I'm taking anyway, is going out on the 3.6. It's my favourite size because it's kind of big enough to get going in 15, 17 knots and when it drops off you can still have the 5 to get back in or to
Dan (49:56)
Nice.
Dom (49:56)
keep on riding. So yeah, I'm the same and after Burner they...
Definitely it's the afterburner. Just
Dan (50:05)
Nice.
Dom (50:05)
because it's of the comfort and you're fighting less the wing. It's a smoother ride.
Dan (50:15)
And you're on the small board too, right? You're on the fifty liter board? Yeah. Yeah,
Dom (50:19)
Yeah, yeah, 55 as well,
Dan (50:22)
you boys are on next level. look, this is my last question. No sharks. Yeah, well, like we the the
Dom (50:26)
No shocks though. No shocks.
Dan (50:30)
shark is a factor, man. The sharks are a factor.
Dom (50:32)
Mm.
Dan (50:33)
last question, like people will compare this pair of wing to double skins, you know, the it's it's in that league of performance. why did you guys not
go with the double skin. We was the performance just as good or how do you or how do you compare the afterburner with like the double skins that you guys were developing and decided not to to use at all?
Dom (50:59)
kind of tried all different systems or styles of designs that are out there on the market. And every time we were struggling to like the bottom end, so we wanted to have the easiness of the bottom end of the single skin, but kind of paired with the performance.
of top, high end and the feeling also you know we've got a lot less load on your front arms.
everything
Dan (51:35)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (51:35)
is a bit lighter just because it wants to shoot so far to the edge of the wind window so it's very low drag but still has the bottom end and I'm not saying you know this is the only design that works for these conditions and depends of what people like but it is you know this is our approach to to the top end performance and
kind of stoked for it. The packing is easy. There's no water entering the canopy
Dan (52:05)
Mm.
Dom (52:06)
that might need to drain out somewhere or might get stuck. There's pros and cons to every design, I guess. But that's what we liked the most. It was our favorite. We got the same.
We've got the same VMG basically as any double skin that we build with this one, but have the accessibility and the low end.
Dan (52:32)
Yeah. I feel like there's a there's an element to it that I think you mentioned the accessibility as well. When I tried double skins, I felt that they were they were really tough to fly. they're not you know, it's not that instinctual to just fly. You kind of have to think about what it's doing a little more. And I think what you guys were able to do with the afterburner is still make it very accessible, predictable and fun.
Like you guys do that with your para wings. When I first tried the pocket rocket, man, I had a smile on my face. I was doing all sorts of things and trying to loop it around. And I think, you know, the afterburner is just as fun. It's so reactive, it's sensitive, so it requires a little bit more finesse and, you know, control in the bar. But man, I think anybody starting out as well, like if you touch this parawing and you're proficient in other types of foiling, you'll be totally fine.
Dom (53:30)
Thank you.
Dan (53:32)
Yeah, well done. Keep going guys. Don't stop, okay? any
Axel (53:35)
and.
Dan (53:36)
final thoughts, gentlemen?
Axel (53:38)
Yeah, just when you were talking guys, I wanted to check the line lengths compared to the pocketfocket V2, just to give you
Dan (53:45)
nice.
Axel (53:45)
the The 4.3 afterburners got 3cm longer riders compared to the pocketfocket V2. And on
Dan (53:57)
Nice.
Axel (53:58)
the 3.6 we're talking about 6cm longer than the pocketfocket V2. So it's not that
Dan (54:03)
Interesting.
Axel (54:04)
crazy.
Dan (54:05)
Yeah. Yeah. From the four three afterburner to the three six afterburner w you wouldn't see that much of a difference then.
Dom (54:12)
centimeter.
Dan (54:14)
Yeah, that's good. Well, look, guys, thank you for coming in and giving us, you know, the inside scoop of the afterburner. I think n I mean, definitely I feel like para wings now are becoming more mature. We're matching wind range with wings. you know, Axel is proving that we can surpass wings in in some elements of riding now, with his racing. So congrats, man. Like
That's that's crazy to see what you're doing with these power wings. So thanks for coming on. you never cease to amaze me with the stuff that you're putting out there. And I feel super proud, man, to be part of the team and you know, just be able to use this gear a little bit before everyone and just get my my froth on is unreal. So thank you so much. And I can't wait for whatever is next.
Dom (55:08)
Right on, yeah. Thank you very much for having us again, Dan and everyone for listening and I guess
Axel (55:14)
Thank you.
Dom (55:15)
we'll talk to you very soon again.
